Episode 45: Mike Hogenmiller, Former Merchandising VP at The Home Depot, Explains How Our Aging Population Affects the Economy and Home Improvement Sales

Mike Hogenmiller, former Merchandising VP at The Home Depot for Kitchen and Bath shares his knowledge and experience as a top executive at the world's largest home improvement company in the world. He delves into statistics related to the aging population and specifically the Baby Boomer segment. Mike explains the market share Baby Boomers hold in the home improvement segment and how this share will continue to increase over the next 2 decades. He helps us make sense of the staggering numbers associated with generational wealth and population growth and how these will affect the US economy, the consumption of goods and services, and the housing market for many years to come. Please listen to my invaluable conversation with Mike Hogenmiller to learn more about steps that need to be taken, to prepare for this enormous shift in our society.

Mike Hogenmiller is a published author and international consultant.

Louis Tenenbaum, Aging In Place Expert, Founder of The Homes Renewed Coalition
The Homes Renewed Coalition
The Home Modification and Accessibility ACT HR 7676
HRC Strategy White Paper
Making It Safe To Age In Place
Link to research and sources quoted on this episode.

Transcript

Janet: 0:44

Hello everyone and thank you for being with us today. I have Mike Hogan Miller. He is a consultant and he is interested in the aging in place market and aging, in place research, and I met him through LinkedIn and we've had a few conversations in the past several weeks and he was. Gracious to accept my invitation to be on the podcast and share all of his knowledge and expertise in the marketing world. Mike, thank you for being with us

1:18

today.

Mike Hogenmiller: 1:19

Oh, it's a pleasure, Janet. Thank you.

Janet: 1:21

Yes. I wanted to ask you several questions, and first, let's start by talking about your career in marketing

Mike Hogenmiller: 1:33

Sounds, good. I was fortunate enough to spend over 40 years. In the home improvement sector, all of it in retail, but it crossed over a couple different paths. Spent 15 years in operations and then 25 years in merchandising marketing, and then also at the executive level. And within that career the biggest piece of that was with the Home Depot. And while I was there, there were two kind of significant events that I think lead up to even why we're having this discussion today. And the first one, I was asked to develop the overall strategy for the Home Depot and what we were gonna do about the aging and place population and the wealth that they controlled. And so from 2011 to about 2016, I spent a lot of time. diving into that sector of the population. And the second piece was I was also fortunate enough to have accountability for Home Depot's.$6 billion kitchen and bath business. And that's important because the bath specifically is a target. At Target meeting, it's a safety target for people as they age. And the kitchen also is a place where people spend a lot of time and things needed to change as, you age to support that. And then along the way that included developing and managing a relationship with suppliers around the world. Some as large, largest 500 million in annual revenue and what they were doing from a research and development standpoint to also. What happens with the aging population. So it's been an interest of mine now for some time.

Janet: 3:08

that's amazing. I'm sure that you have. Just such valuable insight on how people spend their money and also just focused on the aging demographic having worked for Home Depot and specifically being vice president of the kitchen and Bath department.

Mike Hogenmiller: 3:30

Yeah, that's correct. And then what's interesting is on top of. I am the aging and place population. I retired in 2016 when I turned 60. I'm 66 now. I'm fortunate enough to have a lovely wife that's in the same generation. My, both my parents are in their mid eighties and active, so they represent the silent generation. And then I've got boomers, millennials us being boomers, and then millennials and gen. And my children and four generations. Mm-hmm. that kind of overlap now. And the data that I gathered and tried to understand between 2011 and 2016 gave me a ringside seat to what was happening not only in the country, but what was happening even in my own family.

Janet: 4:13

That's interesting. tell me, how does the baby boomer consumer affect the consumption of goods and services currently? And how do you think this will change in the future?

Mike Hogenmiller: 4:26

Interestingly enough starting in about 2010 boomers. More generational wealth in regards to disposable income than all the other generations combined, which is the reason why that started to garnish attention from marketers and retailers and anyone else who was a benefactor of that spend. I think what most people don't understand is two things. First of all, The net wealth in us is gonna grow from 72 trillion to 120 trillion between now and 2030. Boomers own more than 50% of that wealth right now, and even in the future, even by 2030, they'll still own 44% and they'll still account for more than 60 million people in the us. what's also interesting is the silent generation, which you don't hear a lot. You'll hear a lot about boomers, but you don't hear much about the silent generation, which is folks over 70. They still account for more than 24 trillion in wealth, which in most cases isn't even included in the conversations, but they're still significant influencers of what's spent in the United States.

Janet: 5:42

Why don't you think we hear more about the silent generation, if they've already been spending significantly on home re.

Mike Hogenmiller: 5:51

I think in the end the voice of the silent generation changes pretty dramatically when they reach the age of 70 to 75. One, because typically they're no longer in the business sector. So their voice their ability to reach with voice changes, A A R P begins to focus on what we should call the aging population at 60. And so what happens is there's so much discussion about boomers and how much they're spending and remodel and housing and their influence and overall wealth, that the silent generation kind of gets pushed to the side as being assumed that they're spending the majority of their wealth on care services when the reality is they've got similar influence in the market as boomers do, although not at the same. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. yeah, because they're spending more on care and health than they are on remodeling housing, and so that's kind of where the segregation happens. Okay.

Janet: 6:51

Okay. That's interesting. So tell me about that market share with the remodeling industry. Explain that to.

Mike Hogenmiller: 7:01

So I think it's really, really important to understand kind of how the market is made up for example, 75% of boomers own their own home and 63% of'em have no plans of moving like ever again. And when you look at homeowners 55 years and older, They now count for more than 55% of all home improvement spend nationwide. And on average, they're gonna spend around$15,000 upgrading their homes. So the reality is the home improvement market, which has been fueled by boomers for some time now, is gonna continue to be by boomers because they're not moving. They continued to upgrade and nest, and then we saw what happened during the. When people of all homeowners in general were forced to spend time at home, they all decided that their surroundings needed some update whether it be painting or small decor or whatever it happened to be, which grew the home improvement segment even more significantly than it did before. Mm-hmm. But the important thing to remember is boomers are the influencer. In remodeling period?

Janet: 8:10

Yes. Okay. Yes. And that is interesting how the pandemic not only changed how much money people were spending in their homes because now they're spending all their time or much more time in their homes, but also how it influenced people moving in with other generations in their. So the multi-generational home has increased significantly since the pandemic and will continue to increase. So now because of the pandemic, people say that they will continue this trend of moving in with other family members because they've seen that there are many benefit. To multi-generations living in the same home and not just for financial reasons, which was the main reason why historically people of different generations moved in together. and then also cultural reasons. So certain cultures like Asians and Hispanics are more likely to have their older parents move in with them or vice. But now there are other reasons that have nothing to do with those two factors, and that's also going to influence home improvement because when you have people of different generations living together, you have to make some changes in your home in order to make the quality of life good for every. In that home, when you have a teenager, for example, and an older person, that older person is going to need their privacy, but so will the teenager. So maybe you're now investing in soundproofing walls instead of just a master bath on the lower

Mike Hogenmiller: 10:00

level. So here's what's really interesting, Janet, just to kind of hold that thought for a. I think when we talk about boomers, we talk about what they spend on home improvement. I think we have this preconceived notion that a lot of that spend is towards aging related upgrades. Maybe focusing on reducing maintenance costs, lowering what they have to spend on upkeep, and then of course, enhancing access. But the reality is most of their top reasons actually overlap with men. With millennials, engine Xers, that include just increasing the value of the home, making repairs becoming more energy efficient updating the styles of the home. And less than 10% of the work that professionals are reporting right now in home remodeling actually pertains to aging in place projects. And then of those projects that they report there's less than 10% of the work that they're doing. The reason to point at that is for whatever reason, we don't recognize what's happening with the age of population and things that we could do now that could help later in terms of healthcare and caregiving and quality of. So

Janet: 11:16

before you move on, explain to me what is considered, and of course you may get a different answer from different people, but for someone who was a top executive at Home Depot, what is considered an aging in place modification?

Mike Hogenmiller: 11:36

That's an incredibly good question. And. here was the big surprise when I dove into that population and what they were buying. There are a number of changes we've made already in how we spec our homes and the expectations that we. for what we want in terms of ease of use call it accessibility if you like. But there are so many changes that have already taken place that it's almost not even noticeable. And I'll give you an example. and I've had long discussions about this. Faucets inherently used to have round handles. Almost everyone now prefers a lever and a lever. 20 years ago was considered ada, but you don't find an ADA symbol on a lever faucet anymore because it's actually a mainstream item now my favorite topic toilets for example used to be 15 inches tall in round and the box in the aisle that had an ada compliant laser engraved. To show that there was an ADA compliant product in the aisle that doesn't exist anymore either, because most of the product now installed and bought is 17 and a half inches high long gated bowl, which fits all the 80 requirements. So we've been silently moving towards what we used to consider aging in place, but now there's this kind of interesting deline. where you've got folks like you who are occupational therapists that recognize the things that we subtly recognize, but we don't talk about. And a good example is lightning. In the home that I'm in now that we bought six years ago, we put a lot of thought into never moving again. And so we had requirements, for example we wanted the primary bedroom on the main floor But one of the things we didn't think about that occupational think therapists tend to think about is lighting. And I wish now I had thought about that because now I'm in the hard to focus phase, which changes with lighting, which also creates what I don't want to think about, which is unsafe conditions, right? So not enough light cancer tripping hazards whatever that typically you wouldn't think about before. Could you like the subtle nuance. Of different types of lighting and now I'm going, no, I want every room to be bright.

Janet: 13:53

I do too, Mike, so don't feel bad. Yeah. Because I'm also having terrible focusing

Mike Hogenmiller: 13:57

Right. But what we tend to think about that becomes the taboo, quite frankly is things like ramps and wheelchairs and walkers and what I call handlebars on toilets. things of that nature. But those are typically event driven. And so you have to be really careful about how you quantify aging in place and what you know, OTs are asking. And what I've seen in my own research that needs to happen is what we need to be doing is we need to be building dwellings for example, that are already situated with no threshold entries and no threshold bathrooms, wherever they are in the house. Double handrails on staircases, which means we may have to make'em a little bit wider, but door access that can't be 32 inches anymore. microwaves that should be installed in lower cabinets, a long look at whether we really should have upper cabinets. And if we do, how high you want to get. If you're 75, you really want to be standing on a a two step or a three step step. Those are things that homeowners aren't asking for today because they don't want to be in that moment yet. Mm-hmm. but somehow as a country, we need to change specifications and start protecting ourselves now against ourselves, quite frankly. Mm-hmm.

Janet: 15:15

Yeah, I agree with you. It's almost like Botox for the 20 something year old. Mm-hmm. You don't have wrinkles now, but you certainly will depending on your skin color as soon as you're in your mid thirties. Do you, what's,

Mike Hogenmiller: 15:31

what's funny is when you get to my age, you don't care.

Janet: 15:34

Well, if you're a woman, that may not be true. Your wife, me, feel differently than you.

Mike Hogenmiller: 15:40

Very true. Very, very true.

Janet: 15:42

Yeah. So I think and I know you had a hard time answering that question, what is considered an aging in place modification? Because from my conversations with, let's say for example builders, they only think about grab bars and things of that nature And I have a very broad view of what an aging in place modification is, and a lot of times it doesn't include any adaptive equipment at all. And from my conversations with you, you've been defining them as being lifestyle changes that will affect how everyone uses their home. And I agree with you. But the fact is that some of those changes or lifestyle modifications, home modifications will particularly help older people function in their homes better. And so that's why I've lump them under an aging in place modification or universal design where many other people wouldn't. Or for example a company like Home Depot or Lowe's. So let's move on. I want you to explain downsizing versus rightsizing or upsizing because this is also common misconception of what baby boomers are doing as they age, and the homes that they choose So tell me about the research that you've done in

17:22

this

Mike Hogenmiller: 17:22

area. Yeah, that's a great question too, because the one thing you have to think about, Janet is typically when you say downsizing, it usually refers to somebody who's changing their living environment due to cost. And you might even say the same thing about right sizing but let's, let's talk about that consumer for a minute and really kinda understand what's going on. So downsizing in most cases is usually a planned event. Someone has taken advantage of their wealth prior to retiring, whatever date that is. But they've also taken advantage of a larger home due to the size of the family. They've taken advantage of maybe having a swim pool, bigger acreage et cetera. when boomers are downsizing, they're downsizing because of the. the change that's happening in life versus income. And so for example, they may no longer want to have to spend the time and energy to maintain a larger dwelling or to maintain a pool or to maintain acreage. Had five kids all are gone. They're empty nesters now. So downsizing becomes just a change in the day-to-day living situation. Not always about. Hmm. I like how you put that, right. It could be, and I mean, let's not kid ourselves there's a difference between those who are financially independent and those who, who are not. So downsizing in a lot of cases could be that person who is going on to fixed income and no alarm, can't afford the same lifestyle. Let's not kid ourselves that exist. But you can't put everybody in the same. And then when you think about upsizing, that's a really interesting phenomenon because those are boomers that maintained their wealth and didn't spend it intentionally during their working years because they had pre-planned what they wanted to do in their retirement years. And I, I know folks, and I'm one of'em that lived in a very, very modest home. And drove modest cars and took modest vacations. While our generational wealth was increasing dramatically over the last 10 years of my career. And so we always knew that once we retired, we would buy the home of our dream to live in forever. And in that home we would have the space and the accommodations to. Cows, our entire family over big holidays. So we didn't want to we had a three bedroom home. We wanted a five bedroom home. we wanted more space game rooms, multiple kitchens, things of that nature. So we upsized and there's a segment of the boomer population that will upsize at retirement, and that's because they've planned their retirement in that. And then the next one, right sizing is actually even probably the most interesting because you can put a number of definitions against that. But the reality is right sizing is, in the way that I plan forward too, but I no longer need a five bedroom home because my kids are empty nester. I don't need the extra space. I don't plan on entertaining. my kids will visit, but they'll visit one at a time, so I don't need multiple bedrooms. So there's no longer any reason for me to maintain the space that I had and I'm gonna right size and by the way, that could be up or down, right? But, but, but the reason is it's a thought process, not, not an income generated event. And, that's what I worry about is when we talk about downsizing, rightsizing and upsizing, it's always some kind of an income generation event. And it's not, it's a lifestyle.

Janet: 21:01

Mm-hmm. I think that's an excellent way of putting it. let's talk about slowed population growth and how that will affect the housing industry in the future.

Mike Hogenmiller: 21:13

So here's an interesting situation we find ourselves in right now. So millennials have more death than baby boom. At the same age and for them to make large purchases for home remodels may not be an affordable option. And similar to the silent generation. They got caught up in the aftermath of the 2000 recession. And that student loans have become more prominent. Just debt is a different issue today and millennials aren't saving the same amount or generating the same amount of disposable wealth or wealth that can be used. Specifically for growing the home than what the boomers had in so interesting dynamic around that. In 2005, 43% of homeowners were under the age of 35. In 2015, it's down to 31%. That a significant change in just 10. Mm-hmm. So the inability from millennials to become homeowners is compounded by a number of different reasons. And what's even more interesting is millennials made up the largest share of home buyers at 43%. But Boomers made up the largest sell of home sellers at 42%. And Gen Z, which is now 2% of. It's more likely now that older millennials for the first time could be first time sellers than they could be first time buyers. And that's because they have to take advantage of accumulated equity in their original purchase, whatever that might be. The population continuing to age and the cost of housing and day-to-day living, continuing to change. is changing the housing dynamic, which basically boils down to there's gonna be more people staying and investing in their existing dwellings than there are people who are gonna be buying. Mm-hmm

Janet: 23:04

I can tell you that when I first joined the Greater Atlanta Home Builders Associa, A lot of the builders were focusing on the millennials because they were the ones buying homes. So they fall into that statistic that you just mentioned, right? Where they were buying in 2005, but that is already on the tail end of it. So now who are they gonna focus on now? And what I was telling them was they should've have been focusing on the baby boomer, but they weren't listening to

Mike Hogenmiller: 23:35

me. Well, but, but here's what I think is interesting. In all fairness, they're listening to what consumers are asking for. And I go back to the conversation that in the spin that professionals are making, and boomer remodels in home recruitment, there's less than 10% that are asking for any kind. what would be considered aging in place changes. Now some of those, again it depends on how you evaluate what aging in place means. Like they could be updated lighting, they could be doing other things that will qualify, but in just outright changes in specifications that we consider necessary for a person to stay Boomers just aren't asking for it. And so when the builders don't hear the population asking for it, they tend to shy away from making it a part of being mainstream. Now, obviously, and you and I have had this conversation as well, there's a moral obligation, right, to start taking care of the age population, but I think in the end, if we don't physically change the mindset of how the population thinks about where they're. we continue to struggle with enough visibility to what should be happening to avoid what's coming. And when I say avoid what's coming, we haven't even talked about what happens when folks over 70 double in population from a caregiver perspective.

Janet: 25:00

Yeah. So hold that thought for a second. I want to say. Sure. I think the big chasm lies in a lack of education. The reason why people aren't asking for these modifications in their home is because they don't know what to ask for. They don't know what's available. They don't know that lighting is a huge part of fall prevention. Therefore, you need more lighting in your home and you need different types of lighting in your. also that you wanna have at least one zero step entry. People don't think about that until an event happens where they cannot come in their house or get out of their house because every single entrance to their house has steps. And that's a sad reality. that's why I started this podcast because I wanted to educate people for free on things that you can do to your home. And a lot of'em are just simple changes, simple low-cost changes that you can make in your home that will make your home more livable and decrease your fall risk. And it's not based on an event that happened. Talk about marketing strategies for baby boomers, and then I wanna circle back and talk about the last comment that you made about what happens when we don't plan for our aging population. what are the best MA marketing strategies for baby boomers since you're an expert in this?

Mike Hogenmiller: 26:34

So let's, walk back here a little bit and talk about boomers in general for a second. They spend a lot less time on Facebook and Twitter and they spend a significantly higher amount of time watching Televis. reading, print, and listening to the radio. Now, it doesn't say that they don't keep pace with technology because they do, but it's at a slower pace and it doesn't become mainstream 24 7 on Facebook like it is with some of the other generations. I think what's interesting is back in 2000 10 to 15, when I was really taking a hard look at this, trying to figure out what is the strategy. What we found in in the research was boomers don't want to be segregated from everybody else. I mean, they don't want to be targeted for market. They don't, they don't want to be the target for marketing separated from the rest of the generation. So to kind of put that in a way that it's better understood, but probably exaggerated is the commercial can't start out. Hey, if you're old, listen to this because that's the way boomers feel about it. And we looked at doing separate departments within stores and online for aging in place. We looked at do we market differently lever handles versus on faucets versus round handles. And what we found out was the answer was no. That everything had to be mainstream. So if I'm, I'm 70 and I walk into a Home Depot store, I go online, I wanna shop faucets, I don't wanna shop, here's the faucets for people that. I don't wanna shop. Here's the tubs for people that are old. Now, do I want to be educated? Absolutely. If I don't know that there's touch sensing on faucets or there's wave and motion sensing on faucets, although most of the folks in my generation hate it because every bathroom they ever walked in an airport. The automated faucets didn't work. But that's part of the education process and, and what we figured out and what all the research pointed to was there's no magic wand. There's no single best method for reaching boomers. It has to be a multi-channel approach that's mixing conventional marketing with cutting edge, and that's most likely going to get your results. But I have a little bit of a different opinion. And why we're spending so much time marketing to boomers than we are lobbying Congress and the overall population in general to start making changes that are incentivizing folks to think about life differently. Mm-hmm. so that there's an incentive to make a different decision or suggest a different. or suggest a different spec. So it, it almost boils down to giving incentives all the way from manufacturers to retailers, to builders to remodelers, and ultimately to the consumer to start making the changes we need to make today to provide housing that becomes safe in an environment that folks can stay in longer than mm-hmm. than they do. and you and I have had long conversations about this. There is no, hey, if I do this happens be because we've already seen there's not enough incentive in the market for that to occur.

Janet: 29:57

Yes. So let's talk about that. What research is needed to adequately plan for the future cost of an aging population?

Mike Hogenmiller: 30:07

So I'm gonna throw some more of these numbers at you and then we'll talk about it a little bit more in general. We keep talking about 2030, but by that date, the reason why that date's important is over 50% of the 14 or 15 million. what we'll call middle income seniors who are 75 and plus, they're not gonna have sufficient resources to cover the cost of the housing and the medical services that they're projected to need. So that means that half of the people that are middle income, we're not even talking about low income seniors, we're talking about middle income folks aren't gonna be able to cover the cost. And they're certainly not gonna be able to cover the cost if they're all forced into assisted living or nursing homes. having to pay for caregivers in an unsafe environment to begin with. 60% of those folks are gonna have limited mobility. So the numbers are pretty dramatic in terms of where folks are gonna need help. And then if you think about the overall population in mind, we'll just take those middle income seniors for a minute. We'll, we'll set that conversation aside. That's important for a lot of reasons. you know the population in general between 2015 and 2035, and this is a really important number. The population over 65 is gonna grow from 29.5 million to 48 million people. That's a 62% increase. That's a 62% increase in 20 years. Those over the age of 75. Are gonna double. So that'll go from 13 million to 26 million. if you put those two numbers together, more than half of that 48 million, that's over 65, it's gonna be over 75. And so now you're gonna find a population who's really struggling to find appropriate and safe housing to find in-home assisted living providers, even assisted living centers or nursing homes that actually have the appropriate staff and the facilities to. because we've neglected to invest in the resources and the changes that we need to make right now in order to avoid that situation. And so it's kind of a step 1, 2, 3, step one is we have to change the specifications in the way we build housing today, and we have to force remodels to change specifications in the existing homes today to try to keep people in their homes longer. And then on top of that, we have to. The number of healthcare providers there are. We have to change the dynamic in how those folks are paid and incentivized to help take care of the aging population. And we're just not thinking about it today. There's already really good research that shows we spend 50 billion a year just on costs that are associated with falls So think about that. That's. So if the population were to double and we kept those same dynamics between now and 2035, we'd be spending a hundred billion a year on falls.

Janet: 33:10

Yeah. I can tell you working as an ot, a third of the patients, I would say at least a third of the patients that I would go see for the first time it was because they had had some kind of fall event, and that was why they needed O T P T.

Mike Hogenmiller: 33:27

Yeah. So here's what's scary though. So if we just did an average$4,400 modification on a home, people that are over 65, those falls are dropped by 20%. If they're over 75 would dropped by 40%. Wow,

Janet: 33:42

that's a great statistic,

Mike Hogenmiller: 33:43

right? So if you sit there and you start thinking about it the reality is if you took that a hundred billion and you reduced it by even 20% because you reduced the number of falls it was 20 billion a year to spend on improving the quality of the healthcare providers and the living environments that folks are trying to stay in. But for some reason, as a population, we haven't figured that out. Mm-hmm.

Janet: 34:10

and I know you keep saying that we need government to pay attention to this, and I wanna mention Louis Tennebaum that Oh, absolutely. From the Home's Renewed Coalition that he's been working on, the Home Modification and Accessibility Act, HR 7676 which has bipartisan support, which that in and of itself, It's amazing

Mike Hogenmiller: 34:35

the one thing I don't wanna leave out Janet, is the piece of puzzle that really needs to happen that for whatever reason, and it may already exist and I just can't find it, but we don't articulate what the cost of providing care whether it be caregivers in home or in assisted living or nursing. healthcare caregivers, et cetera. we, we have not articulated what we spend as a country today. And we all know the challenges around it already. Right? And then don't articulate what we're gonna have to be spending in just the next 10 or 12 10 or 15 years on the exact same circumstance. And what we're gonna find is we're gonna be woefully short. Mm-hmm. So in my mind, you. what needs to occur is the country in general, and yet almost have to look at the legislators, have to figure out what that number is and then how do we appropriate the right spin now to avoid that number and the disaster that goes along with it, quite frankly.

Janet: 35:39

Right. And I wanna mention again that there are four major categories that contribute to falls in older adults. one is unsafe homes, which is what we've primarily been talking about, but the other three should not go un mentioned, which is lack of exercise or muscle weakness in older adults. Vision changes and taking medications incorrectly. if we address those four areas, two of those are addressed by healthcare. Then you can dramatically reduce falls in older adults, which is the major reason why people end up in the hospital, have a serious injury or death, and that a fall can change your life forever. If you fall and you break your hip because you tripped on. The entrance coming in from your backyard into your home, which I can tell you I've had many patients that had that kind of accident that were completely independent very functional, and they tripped, fell, and now they have a broken hip. They've had to have a total hip replacement, and now they're lives have changed forever. And did you know that 25 percent of people who have a hip fracture that results in surgery will die within six months. That's a pretty serious

Mike Hogenmiller: 37:13

statistic. Yep. Something we should be thinking about for sure.

Janet: 37:17

Yeah. And a lot of it is preventable. And another thing that we need to mention, and you have mentioned this inadvertently, that we're not going to have the caregivers available to take care of people. Whether that's in your home or you're talking about an assisted living or a nursing home, those caregivers are not going to be present because everyone is aging. That's the issue. So we are going to have to rely on technology to help people age in place. That's going to be a huge area in aging in place, is technology. Now, we're not even talking about grab bars anymore, or like you said, handle bars for your toilets. We're talking about technology that you can put in your house that will help caregivers monitor their loved ones Or communication that's going to connect healthcare services with that person. So it becomes very complex. It's a very complex subject matter, and we very quickly move away from talking about grab bars and toilet risers to talking about much bigger concepts that encompass many, many different businesses and many different products out.

Mike Hogenmiller: 38:36

Well, I think all of it's important. There's no doubt. It's funny you mentioned talking about know, kind of inadvertently mentioning caregivers. For me that's a real concern. You listened today about the quality of healthcare and, and unfortunately the. Kind of gave us some indicators of what the quality of healthcare is and some of the assisted living in nursing homes that we have just due to the number of folks we lost mm-hmm. during the pandemic as a result of that that obviously has to be a real concern. And the likelihood that those folks would've been endangered by COVID being in their own homes is different. And we have to remember. So if we can create a safe environment in home with a caregiver that's supported with the right salary and incentive to be a caregiver, then we change the dynamic.

Janet: 39:29

Yeah, I agree with. Well, Mike, thank you for being on my show today. This was a very interesting conversation. I'm very happy that I met you and reached out to you, and I hope that we can start the wheels of change by getting this research done and incorporating the financial perspective that you've provided. I hope that you'll come on my show again when I'd

Mike Hogenmiller: 40:00

be happy to you to talk about Yeah, I'd be happy to, Janet. I appreciate the fact that you gave me some time to talk about what's a really important topic for me, and I also appreciate your role as an OT and the other OTs in what's happening with the population. So I can't thank you enough.

Janet: 40:18

Well, it's been a great conversation. Thank you again for being on my show.

Mike Hogenmiller: 40:23

Thanks, Janet.