Viconic Health Has Proven Innovative Technology That Can Help Older Adults Age In Place

Viconic Health is a company that specializes in developing and manufacturing passive impact protection systems. Their goal is to bring the same level of passive impact protection to senior living that is currently enjoyed in industries like automotive and sports. They have developed an underlayment system that provides enhanced fall protection in long-term care facilities and aging in place environments. The system is compatible with flexible floor coverings and has been tested to reduce the risk of severe and critical injuries from falls. The cost of installation is around $7.50 per square foot. Viconic Health is actively working on creating awareness and developing relationships with installers and providers in the industry.

Takeaways

Viconic Health specializes in passive impact protection systems for senior living.
Their underlayment system provides enhanced fall protection in long-term care and aging in place environments.
The system is compatible with flexible floor coverings and has been tested to reduce the risk of severe and critical injuries from falls.
The cost of installation is around $7.50 per square foot.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Overview of Viconic Health
01:29 Development of Underlayment System for Fall Protection
03:24 Increased Risk of Death from Falls
04:47 Technology Behind the Product
06:56 Product Demonstration
10:33 Compatibility with Flooring Options
12:27 Installation Process and Flooring Suppliers
16:42 Reduction in Risk of Serious Injuries
22:11 Cost of Installation
24:13 Enhanced Comfort and Other Benefits
27:14 Suitability for Different Spaces
29:04 Application in Aging in Place
34:00 Upcoming Enhancements and New Products
36:02 Conclusion and Contact Information

Contact Joel Cormier on LinkedIn
WhitePaper

Transcript

Janet (00:01.236)
Hello everyone and thank you for joining me. Today I have Joel Colmier. He is the Director of Engineering for Viconic Health. Joel, thank you for being with us.

Joel Cormier (00:15.257)
Thanks for having me on Janet and good to be able to reach out to your listeners.

Janet (00:21.108)
Yes, so I want you to tell us about Vikonic Health and the incredible innovations that it has come out with for people who want to age in place. So can you start by giving us an overview of Vikonic Health and its mission?

Joel Cormier (00:40.315)
Sure. Viconic Health and its affiliates are subject matter experts in developing and manufacturing passive impact protection systems. We're based here in Metro Detroit. And the technology that I've been a part of developing for 25 years now is used on over 65 % of cars and trucks for head and pelvic impact protection on 75 % of wheeled ground combat vehicles protecting our war fighters.

for passive crash and passive blast protection in those environments. And our goal is really to bring the same level of passive impact protection to senior living that we enjoy currently in environments like automotive, military, and sports surfaces.

Janet (01:29.908)
Okay, well, it's very interesting. Tell us a little bit more about specifically what this product looks like and then how you're transferring its use into aging in place.

Joel Cormier (01:45.371)
Sure. So we actually started developing our underlayment system after we developed our blast mitigating floor mat solution for the military. It looks very similar. And actually we started under a grant from the NFL GE and Under Armour to put it underneath artificial turf. So we really began the process by establishing a test lab, understanding how turf and.

flooring surfaces were being evaluated in sports. And when we started testing floor coverings and the construction in long -term care, we were really shocked that there are no requirements for fall protection in long -term care. And even from a fall height of one or two feet, the levels that we were seeing from the test devices that we commonly use in sports and automotive impact protection,

It was very injurious. So, and then once we learned that if you're over 65 and you fall and break your hip, there's a 25 % chance that you're dead within a year from complications of that, that injury and traumatic brain injury, which we work with all the time in automotive and sports is just as bad. So we really pivoted to senior living starting in about 2017 to develop an underlayment system that.

was compatible with flexible floor coverings that could be put into both the long -term care environment and the aging in place environment to provide an enhanced level of protection from falls in those communities and in homes.

Janet (03:24.98)
And in homes, yeah. So Joel, I just learned a new piece of information that actually the risk for death increases not just by 25%, it's actually increased to 33 % for women and 37 % for people who sustain a hip fracture from a fall.

Joel Cormier (03:49.919)
Yeah, that's not surprising. You know, that statistic I gave was a little bit dated. So you're, may be a little bit more on the, on the pulse of the, the latest data. As we know, there's an influx of more older adults coming into long -term care. And I think COVID was especially bad, you know, with the staffing crisis and long -term care and just having the ability to make good transfers and things that, that can, can lead to falls.

And really our product operates under the need for fall protection in addition to all the great work that's done with fall prevention and detection. But protection is the unmet need that we're really trying to fill within this space using our knowledge of developing products that have been successful in doing so in other industries.

Janet (04:47.694)
Can you explain to us the technology behind your product?

Joel Cormier (04:53.471)
Sure. So we really engineered our system to be a balancing act between mobility and fall risk reduction. In order to reduce the risk of injury, when you fall onto a surface or when you impact a surface, that surface has to have the ability to be able to deform and to stroke, for lack of a better term, to absorb energy so that less force is experienced by the body.

So our product is comprised of two layers. There's a top surface that's a load leveling layer that's rigid, but allows for deformation of an energy absorbing layer that lies beneath that. So that top rigid layer is what the floor covering, the flexible floor covering attaches to. And I want to say that, you know, the culprits in this environment are really, you know, our age and these rigid sub floors. The floor coverings themselves are really doing what...

They've been intended and engineered to do to provide traction and durability and be attractive to and have aesthetic characteristics that we want to have where we live and where we age. So we engineered our system to be compatible with the flexible floor coverings from a variety of manufacturers and their floor coverings are an important part of the solution because they still need to maintain those surface properties. But ours is really engineered to support the mobility to be firm and stable for

ambulation for movement, walking wheelchairs, motorized wheelchairs, hospital beds rolling. But when there's enough impact energy, when you fall, you know, your mass starts working against you and, you know, the flooring is then capable of deforming and absorbing energy and reducing the risk of injury. So that's really how it works. And that's the type of systems that...

that we have in place and in other environments where the technology is used.

Janet (06:56.014)
Now, I had the benefit of meeting you in person a few months ago and you showed us the product and then you also tested the product for us where we could see the impact and how it absorbs impact depending on the weight that is put upon it. Do you have the product that you can show us since this is a recording where people can see it?

Joel Cormier (07:23.551)
Absolutely. I've got a sample right here actually. So this is the product by itself without the floor covering on it. You'll see from the, this is a view from the underside. These cones are made out of a very resilient material that buckles and collapses and then recovers for repeat impacts.

Janet (07:34.732)
Okay.

Joel Cormier (07:49.119)
It's called the thermoplastic urethane and this is really our technology is this energy absorbing layer. And then you've got this rigid top surface, which then accepts the floor covering, whether it's a carpet or flexible vinyl product that would go over the top of it to create the system. These panels come in about five feet by about two and a half feet in length. I've actually got one behind me here. I'll see if I can pan down to it.

And it's a floating subfloor system, a floating underlay. And the way it attaches and is installed is there's a release liner that's removed and there's an overlap of the low leveling layer to the cone layer. And this has got a pressure sensitive adhesive. So you just really assemble the puzzle pieces together to create the flooring underlay that just rests on top of the rigid.

Janet (08:24.718)
something.

Joel Cormier (08:48.423)
floor covering and surface. It rests on top of the rigid subfloor and then you put your flexible floor covering over the top of that. We also have engineered transitions with the product as well too that we supply as a portion of the system. So you can transition from one flooring surface to another in a way that's ADA compliant. It doesn't create a trip hazard. And then when we need to locally support,

and stiffen certain areas for like maybe a toilet mount we actually install and put this product underneath that doesn't add any height to it, but stiffens the area locally. So if you had a toilet or a heavy bariatric hospital bed or a pool table in long -term care, that can help support that locally to prevent the deformation. Because again, the system is engineered to deform during the fall. And if you put heavy loads on it for long periods of time,

Janet (09:34.252)
Oh, okay.

Joel Cormier (09:47.421)
in excess of certain limits that we specify, it can start to have those heavy objects can start to sink into the floors. So it's really a balancing act of being able to deform during a fall and supporting your average movement and mobility. But the panels pack very efficiently. It's a light system and it goes down and installs very, very quickly.

Janet (10:17.61)
That's amazing. That's a great explanation. Thank you for showing us all of the components. Now, are there limitations in terms of the flooring options that we have?

Joel Cormier (10:33.887)
Yeah, that's a good question. So it's really engineered to be compatible with flexible floor coverings. So those would be any type of carpet, resilient sheet vinyl, stick down flexible luxury vinyl tiles. It's not really compatible at all with ceramic tile or rigid plank wood flooring or the click type.

of LVT that's going down in a lot of areas because the system really needs to be able to deform locally in order to absorb that impact energy. And those products just don't allow that to occur because they're so stiff and rigid. So we don't recommend any of those products for use, but there are so many beautiful, you know, flexible floor coverings, all the, you've got access to all the carpets and a lot of the luxury vinyl goods.

Janet (11:15.598)
Mm -hmm.

Joel Cormier (11:29.291)
in rolls or, you know, in the individual tiles. All the manufacturers have a stick down product that that can be used with Viconic and, and, and it looks and feels like a, you know, a conventional floor is, is one of the great things about it. Once it's installed, you know, most of the residents really don't even know it's there and it's provided, you know, protection underneath that attractive floor covering.

24 -7, you know, for, and we warranty the product for 10 years. So, I mean, it's, it's there ready to do its job when, when a fall happens.

Janet (12:10.414)
So a potential customer, if they're interested in adding this to their flooring, do they contact Viconik Health first and then get a list of flooring suppliers that your underlayment can be used with?

Joel Cormier (12:27.915)
That's a good question. Thus far, we've been really focused on long -term care and...

specific providers who have their own flooring installers and preferred floor coverings that they work with. We have been running a grant program where we provide the Viconic for a couple rooms so their flooring installers and the facility can get familiar with the product and they use their installers to install it because it is so simple to install. So most of it has been on

Janet (12:40.94)
Mm -hmm.

Joel Cormier (13:03.851)
whoever the provider works with. We don't have internal installers ourselves, so we are working currently to develop a nationwide network of installation professionals and CAPS professionals like yourself, educating them on what the product does, how it's installed and used, and the benefits that the product also offers once it's installed within that space. So most of the...

Flooring manufacturers are aware of us. We've worked with some very closely and others we hope to work with more closely as we bring this product into both long -term care and aging in place in mass.

Janet (13:44.43)
Hmm. So what are some of the major flooring manufacturers that already use your product?

Joel Cormier (13:53.739)
Well, we've really left it up to the facilities and who they want, whose floor coverings they've wanted to install. But we've got a great working relationship with Mannington Commercial. We started doing a lot of our initial development and collaboration with them to understand just how floors work, what they need to do, what they're subjected to and make sure that our product is specified appropriately. But we've had Shaw and Tarquette and

Mohawk and Armstrong products go over our system and those installations look really, really good. And I'm sure there's a variety of others, Pat Craft and Floor and Decor has got some products that we're starting to look at as well too. So the good news is that the way it's installed, it's installed with acrylic water -based pressure sensitive adhesives that pretty much all the flooring manufacturers have and are using.

because it's low VOCs and specifically it needs to be an adhesive system with the flexible floor covering that stays flexible. So it can't be an epoxy or something that sets rigid to assemble the floor covering to the Viconic. So it's really the choice of the flexible floor covering and then these acrylic water -based pressure sensitive adhesives work really well. And we haven't found one manufacturer's product that hasn't been.

able to be attached with that type of adhesive system and their flexible floor coverings. So, and they've held up really well. We've had some installations down in long -term care as long as three years and, you know, certainly replacing floor coverings and long -term care is something that is often done due to incontinence and maybe other issues that are happening in that space. So we have.

uninstalled, even though it didn't need to be uninstalled and reinstalled floor coverings over the top of an existing Viconic install. And that works well too. So really the best bet would be to reach out to us and determine what type of floor coverings and manufacturers you're used to and want to see in your environment, wherever you're living and aging where you need that additional.

Joel Cormier (16:17.131)
fall protection.

Janet (16:18.638)
So basically if someone falls and they have this type of underlayment underneath their flexible flooring, then what are the statistics that that fall is less likely to result in a serious injury or a bone fracture?

Joel Cormier (16:42.891)
That's a good question because really we've been looking at industries who are already looking at these same type of injuries like head injury and automotive crashes and pelvic injuries as well as sports surfaces. So we've been using testing standards and injury metrics that have been used in a lab setting to evaluate those risks of those types of injuries.

Your average fall height, free fall height, if you were just to fall, you would think it might be as tall as you are, but it's actually closer to two feet as your actual free fall velocity when you fall. And when we test those systems and flooring systems with and without Viconic, adding Viconic adds roughly a 35 % reduction in risk of those severe and critical injuries based on the lab data.

And the data that we're seeing from the providers, which takes installations and takes people falling on it, is coming in and showing similar numbers based on the installations that we've had down now for as long as three years. And the providers are happy with the product and the results. We've received a very warm welcome from...

the industry because falls are a pain point everywhere for these providers and for residents at home as well too. You know, from caregivers to leading gerontologists to designers and architects and installers, I mean, really embracing us coming into this industry and wanting to see us succeed. And we need to collaborate with those people to make sure we've got that we're doing the best we can to improve outcomes from falls.

Janet (18:16.558)
night.

Joel Cormier (18:40.915)
It's been a difficult time to launch a new product with staffing shortages, global pandemic, supply chain disruptions, cost increases. But we're very passionate about what we're doing. And it's taken a little bit more time than we would probably like, but we're starting to get some really significant traction in the long -term care space. We're working with seven new providers since April.

of last year when we rolled out the grant program, which made it easy for people to and providers to adopt it and have an install within their walls and compare the fall data of the vikonic rooms and the non -vikonic rooms. And that feedback so far continues to be very positive. We do have an extensive technical white paper that's available on our website in the resources tab.

It's 26 pages if you want to nerd out and understand the science behind Viconik and those test devices and the methodology that we use to develop the system. But we're continually updating the white paper with the actual fall data from where it's been installed. And, you know, your listeners can log on to our website. I'm assuming you'll post a link for us as well there where people can get more information.

including looking at some videos and the drop testing and the type of things, the head impact testing that we've done, the mobility analysis, the evaluation of comfort under foot, all that is published on our website and available. But getting back to your original question, it is playing out like we thought, at least initially with what the...

data from the independent testing that we had used in the lab setting actually in the built environment.

Janet (20:39.918)
Well, 35 % of a reduction in bone fractures or a head injury is significant.

Joel Cormier (20:49.683)
It is, it is. And, you know, certainly people can be so frail that they may, whether viconics there or not, in certain circumstances, they may still break, but hopefully, you know, the injury is less severe and it gives them a better opportunity to recover from that. I know when we looked at head injury metrics that are used in automotive and playground surfaces, we're seeing, you know, values that are

you know, three times the federal limit that what would be common to operate a playground. And we drop it to less than half of that limit with a system that's under half an inch in thickness of added height in that environment. So like I said, you know, a lot of industries have looked at ways to reduce the risk of death and critical injury. And we're not reinventing the wheel with how we're

evaluating it, we're just reinventing really how we apply it to floors in this type of environment.

Janet (21:55.212)
And Joel, what is the cost if someone wants to have this system installed? They were doing a home renovation and they want to go ahead and install it because they're getting new flooring. What is the cost to a consumer?

Joel Cormier (22:11.283)
Yeah, so for our product itself, that's really all I can speak to. We've looked at the installation costs very widely, you know, based on region for that labor portion of it. But our product by itself is currently at around $7 .50 a square foot for the purchase price of it. And then, you know, you have the installation cost is similar to what it would cost to install the floor covering.

over the top of it as well. So you do have the installation of the Viconic and then the installation of the floor covering as an added labor cost. It also depends highly on the space as well too. The product is engineered for easy installation, but in any small space or bathroom where you got a lot of cuts that you need to make to fit to the perimeter, your labor numbers can go up. But from a cost per square foot,

standpoint that's currently where we're at right now. Obviously, we were lower before existing economics and inflation and other things drove up the cost of materials and our product is made from engineered thermoplastics. That's why it lasts so long and why it's so durable. But we hope with economies of scale as we scale up our manufacturing, we're kind of in a soft launch, initial launch phase that will

we'll be able to offer it at that price or below moving forward. But that's the rough, that's where we're at today.

Janet (23:46.382)
Okay, now I would think that there are other uses other than fall protection and decreasing your risk from serious injury. If you're adding a cushion under your flooring, wouldn't that also make it more comfortable? I can think of in the kitchen, I love to cook. And when I spend long periods of time,

I mean, even an hour, I have my son during the holidays, I had a Christmas party and he was helping me prepare some of the food. And he had been standing there close to an hour and he's 11 and he says to me, mom, I'm tired. And I said, yes, because you've been standing in place for a long period of time. And I know that.

Joel Cormier (24:34.473)
But.

Janet (24:43.018)
I would love to have something in my kitchen that would make my floor more resilient, more absorbent and easier for me to stand there.

Joel Cormier (24:55.389)
Absolutely. And so would my wife, by the way. So she does want it in our, in our kitchen. And there is some enhanced comfort underfoot. You know, we've, we have it available at the trade shows for people to walk on it. And it just, it just feels good. You know, it's, it doesn't feel, it feels like more like a wood frame construction in a house than walking on tile or concrete. There's just a little cushion underneath it. And that data is also available on our website.

Janet (24:57.672)
Yeah.

Janet (25:12.2)
Mm -hmm.

Joel Cormier (25:24.193)
It also creates a little bit of an air gap. It might not be as much of a benefit down south, but I know up here in Michigan and with the providers that we're currently working with in Minnesota and Nebraska and Montana, it's minus 17 in Montana today, it provides a little bit of thermal insulation underfoot. So it creates that air gap and it has an R value of about one. So you get a little cushion and you get,

you know, a little bit of, of insulation and that just makes it more comfortable. And as, and as you know, as a, as a CAPS professional, like myself, you know, being able to eliminate things in the, in the environment that create or can promote a fall is a trip hazard, like a rug or, you know, even these anti -fatigue mats or fall things. If you can eliminate those in the space by, um, installing by Conic and a.

and a flexible floor covering and still get that same anti fatigue comfort benefit that you would get standing in front of your sink or at your bedside. That's big and reducing these combined strategies of prevention and reducing occurrence of falls in the space. So in that case, that's one of the reasons why I think occupational therapists and gerontologists are very

Janet (26:28.234)
He's one.

Joel Cormier (26:49.345)
interested in the environment because, you know, as much as we're trying to make the environment more comfortable, sometimes those things can promote a fall as Tripp has.

Janet (26:59.88)
Yeah, like padded carpet.

Joel Cormier (27:02.849)
Yep. Yep.

Janet (27:04.938)
Now, are there particular spaces where this type of underlayment is better suited for?

Joel Cormier (27:14.561)
I think it really depends on the lifestyle of the resident and where they're falling. Most falls occur at night or in transitioning from bed or dressing or in the bathroom. Those are the common ones, but they can really occur anywhere within the environment. So.

While our initial installations and testing has been on individual resident rooms and long -term care, we're getting more and more interest in just putting it behind the doors of, you memory cares, assisted living, and skilled nursing facilities, for example, everywhere, you know, so that level of protection is provided throughout the facility, no matter where the resident is. And that's where we expect it to go in the future because it...

eliminates any of the transitions that we have and that we've heard, you know, which are helpful to transition from one flooring surface to another. But if you've just got it at one level throughout the facility, certainly that's going to be best for, you know, shufflers and maybe people who have Parkinson's and, you know, other and comorbidities, you know, in that space where we're ambulating and moving is difficult for them.

Janet (28:09.608)
Mm -hmm.

Janet (28:36.938)
And what about in the home? Is there any information on, you know, since so many people are going to be aging in place, you know, Joel, you're CAP certified now. So I know that you're very knowledgeable about the aging in place market. We've got 10 ,000 baby boomers turning 65 every single day until the year 2030. And then after that, we have Generation X, which I belong to and so do you.

Joel Cormier (29:04.863)
Yep.

Janet (29:05.93)
And then we're going to be the next group aging and that's until the year 2050. And most people want to age in place. AARP has done several studies that say at least 85 % of the population wants to age in place. So, you know, stay at home and it may not be the home they've lived in for the last 30 years, but it certainly is a home of their choice.

and usually not a senior living facility. And I think this is a great product if you're talking about helping people stay at home. The key is fall prevention because falls is what changes people's lives, changes their quality of life and often necessitates for them to move into a senior living facility. So this is a great product to have in your home.

Joel Cormier (30:02.785)
Yeah, we agree. And this is our kind of our second phase, our new developments that that we're working to make it available to individual residents for in place. You know, there's the also the aspect of us generation Xers who are in the sandwich generation where we've got kids that we're taking care of and we've got, you know, parents that are older as well, too. So, as you know, visitability within your home becomes an issue, even if.

Janet (30:13.546)
Mm -hmm.

Joel Cormier (30:32.641)
even if it's not you that is at the risk necessarily of falling yet or risk of fall related injuries, you know, it really becomes an option for both, you know, our homes and certainly for those who are experiencing falls or, you know, are unsteady in their gate. So it really depends on where they're spending the majority of their time within the home and where falls are most likely to occur.

It seems like still the data shows that in the home, it's kind of bed, bath and kitchen, you know, just depending upon the different activities that you're doing, whether it's dressing or showering, you know, in an environment that might be a little slipperier than in a wet area, or if you're, you cooking and you're moving and have, you know, have pot.

hand, you know, those are, those are areas that we're seeing, but, you know, certainly other areas, living rooms and pretty much anywhere where the, where the resident is at a, at a risk. We're, we're seeing interest in, in fall homes and talking to a gentleman up in Ontario, you know, and, uh, he wants to age well and he wants to put it everywhere, you know, in his future 4 ,000 square foot home, um, to protect him and his wife. And he's got some, um, some of her sisters, um, looking at.

Janet (31:38.25)
Yeah.

Joel Cormier (31:57.633)
moving in as well too, and he wants them to be safe. And he's, you know, he's one of these very proactive providers, you know, and certainly wants to age well. So that's really, it's up to the resident, you know, where they can afford to put it and where their falls are.

Janet (32:19.306)
Great, it sounds, I would love to have this in, I don't think I'm going to age in place in the home that I currently live in now. But in my future home that includes all universal design and accessible and adaptable features. Now,

Joel Cormier (32:28.609)
Join the club!

Joel Cormier (32:44.353)
Yeah, I don't have a first floor bedroom. I don't have a first floor, you know, full bath. And I've got a lot of height transitions in my house was built in the forties, you know, so it's what we love our house and we love where we're at, but certainly, you know, universal design and all the great work that, you know, designers and gerontologists have done to get us to this point to.

Janet (32:53.514)
Mm -hmm.

Janet (32:58.556)
Oh yeah.

Joel Cormier (33:13.089)
really have the science behind how you lay out a house to reduce risk and certainly on your end, how you can go in and take an existing dwelling and make it as safe as it can be for that resident to age in place as long as possible. And some of those home modifications can be very simple and inexpensive from just adding grab bars or those types of things that were where it's kept.

Janet (33:34.666)
everyone.

Joel Cormier (33:42.145)
you know, professionals that can improve the environment and give them a better shot at staying at home for as long as possible.

Janet (33:49.93)
Yeah. Now my last question is, are there any upcoming enhancements or new products for Viscountic Health?

Joel Cormier (34:00.737)
Yeah, what we're really doing is we're focusing a bit more on aging in place now. And we're really, like I said, we don't have installers. We're looking to develop a network nationwide of installers who understand how to execute of iconic install. We do have our installation guide is in that resources tab on the website. So we're looking to try and develop those relationships. We're actually going to be.

exhibiting to the general public for the first time at the Novi Home Show in Novi, Michigan here next weekend. So we'll be exhibiting and, you know, we're new, new kids on the block to this market, but we've been, you know, our affiliates have been manufacturing these type of products for a number of years. So we're really just trying to create awareness right now.

This industry doesn't really understand who Vyconic is and what fall defense is because it's such a paradigm shift from what's been installed for so many years. So really what we're focusing on more is the awareness campaign, developing relationships and training and working with installers. So currently we do have a partner in Metro Atlanta that people can reach out to there who has

and install our network. They're called Forever Home. And we've been very pleased in working with them to help us understand all of the needs within the home and where Viconix a fit and to make it available there. And then we hope to be able to propagate that model into more environments. So.

Certainly, if anyone's interested, they can then reach out to us on our website to get more information or express their interest in becoming a preferred installer of the product.

Janet (36:02.41)
Well, thank you very much Joel. I feel like I had just learned so much today and I really enjoyed looking at all of the components of your product and understanding better how it works and I will include the link to your website also to your personal LinkedIn profile because I know you're very active on LinkedIn and then also if you could I

I will include the white paper as well. So anyone who wants to read it can have access to it. Yes. Well, thank you.

Joel Cormier (36:38.507)
Awesome.

Well, we really appreciate the opportunity to help us, you know, create awareness of what we're doing. We look forward to, you know, networking, collaborating with more providers, with individual people, you know, for their home modifications. And certainly your time today and having me on your show.

Janet (37:02.858)
Okay, thank you, Joel.

Joel Cormier (37:04.545)
Thank you.