Curbless showers provide accessibility and aesthetic benefits compared to traditional showers with curbs.

Summary

Joseph Erlbach, co-owner of Rapid Recess Systems, discusses the benefits and installation process of curbless shower systems.

He explains that the idea for the system came about when his wife broke her leg and struggled with getting in and out of the shower.

The Rapid Recess System uses steel brackets to recess the plywood floor between floor joists, allowing for the installation of thin shower trays or pans.

Erlbach emphasizes that curbless showers are common in Europe and are more accessible and aesthetically pleasing than traditional showers with curbs.

He also addresses the challenges of getting installers to adopt the system and the importance of educating customers about the benefits of curbless showers.

Takeaways

Curbless showers provide accessibility and aesthetic benefits compared to traditional showers with curbs.

The Rapid Recess System uses steel brackets to recess the plywood floor between floor joists, allowing for the installation of thin shower trays or pans.

Curbless showers are common in Europe and are more accessible and aesthetically pleasing.

Getting installers to adopt curbless shower systems can be challenging due to resistance to change and lack of knowledge.

Educating customers about the benefits of curbless showers and offering them as an option can lead to increased customer satisfaction and home value.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background
01:10 The Benefits of Curbless Showers
03:26 Curbless Showers in Europe vs. the US
06:11 Challenges of Getting Installers to Adopt Curbless Shower Systems
10:53 Educating Customers about the Benefits of Curbless Showers

Transcript

Janet Engel (00:01.468)
Hello everyone, and today we have Joseph Erlbach. He is the co -owner of Rapid System. Rapid System specializes in creating curbless shower systems. Joseph, thank you for being with us today.

Josef Erlebach (00:18.798)
Thank you Janet for having me and just a slight correction, it's rapid recess systems.

Janet Engel (00:25.852)
Okay, thank you. And I wanted for you to tell us how your product works, but just give us a little summary on how you started your company with your wife.

Josef Erlebach (00:28.302)
Yeah, it's.

Josef Erlebach (00:44.686)
Yeah, it was a very interesting and a very painful thing to do because my wife broke her leg in 2010 in 11 places from her knee down to her ankle and spent 11 months on crutches. And the most difficult and painful part of the day for her was getting in and out of the shower.

stepping over the curb, 4x4 inch curb and after that she said no more curbs for showers. We have to create a system where people, where it's going to be easy, inexpensive and fast for people to create curbless showers, that they don't have to go through this. So she tasked me with that in 2012 and we finally started making it in 2017.

Janet Engel (01:30.012)
Yes.

Janet Engel (01:40.156)
Okay, great. And how does your system work?

Josef Erlebach (01:48.558)
F

Originally it was a set of steel brackets, basically floor hangers that allow you to recess that plywood floor in between the floor joists without cutting into them. That was the biggest problem for people when they hear curbless showers is that they think they have to completely redesign and change the structural integrity of that floor by cutting into the floor joists and doing all that. No, we wanted to change it and

And we found out that those three quarters of an inch that our brackets make is the difference where people can actually install thin char trays and char pans that they can tile over or solid surface.

Janet Engel (02:30.012)
Mm -hmm.

Josef Erlebach (02:38.766)
So that was the idea behind it, that people don't have to go through all cutting into floor joists and re -engineering that floor. That was the basic idea.

Janet Engel (02:51.74)
Well, I think that's brilliant and you were telling me before we got started that you are from Europe and in Europe there is no such thing as a curbed shower. And I was in Spain this past summer and most of the Airbnb's where I stayed they had the curbless shower but you are telling me that that is pretty much how

Showers are built in Europe.

Josef Erlebach (03:25.806)
Yeah, I am by trade. I'm a mason. I did my apprenticeship in 1986 and I have built many showers or shower pans in Europe from Czech to Sweden to Norway and around and I've never built one with a curb. We don't even have a name for a curb in the shower.

So when I came to United States, I built my first shower pan the way I built it in Europe and people freaked out and they're like, where's the curb? Why would you have a curb into a beautiful, perfectly functioning shower? No, that's how we do it here. So it kind of surprised me, but whatever my customers wanted.

Janet Engel (04:15.996)
But that's very interesting. Now how do installers get trained to install your system? How does that work?

Josef Erlebach (04:30.798)
There's not much training required. It's the basic intuitive design that we use when people were asking us to design something like that for them. Because people are already doing it by cutting out the subfloor, sistering joists and doing it the hard way and the difficult way.

We train we have a technical department where people are on the phone all day long with people explaining how to do it FaceTime or whatsapp whatever it is that they want to explain because sometimes that showers those showers are not Perfect and they are something that is out of the ordinary. So that's what our training department is for

We have a traveling salesman where they go and do trainings at our dealers and distributors around the country. And of course we have videos and installation manuals on our website.

Janet Engel (05:43.068)
For people who may be listening that don't know the difference between or don't know how to create a curbless shower and all of the steps necessary that are needed in order to create a curbless shower in the traditional way, can you just quickly summarize that for us and then summarize how your system is different?

and how it simplifies that whole process.

Josef Erlebach (06:11.15)
you

There's two basic situations. There's one that is where we use our brackets or where people were dropping the floor. Somehow that's on plywood. When you have concrete, sometimes you cannot do anything about it because you cannot touch it or you just have to cut into it. But we are going to go over that plywood installation where we make it simple.

In the old days with mud and PVC and CPE liners people had to open up the floor, cut out the floor joists, replace them with smaller joists, but denser, closer together and all that with the structural engineer and building department. We wanted to eliminate that because that's a very, very expensive proposition.

So what we do now is we cut out that plywood floor from the area that needs to be recessed. That's the Charo Payne.

We install our steel brackets on the parameter and over the floor joists, then cut out strips of plywood and fit it in between the floor joists on top of our brackets, screw it all down and we have a perfect, this solid base for installing the shower pan that we wanna do in that area.

Janet Engel (07:43.964)
very interesting.

Josef Erlebach (07:44.59)
That's as simple as it is. Usually it takes for a semi -experienced person, it takes about two hours to cut it out and put the brackets in and put the plywood in to get that floor ready for shower pan installation.

Janet Engel (08:00.924)
And how long would it take to this process if an installer were doing it in the traditional way?

Josef Erlebach (08:09.422)
Well, it depends on because there are three different types of floor joists. There's a standard lumber, then you have I -joists and you have trusses. On standard lumber, I would say it would take about five hours. Still doable because you can sister joists and all that. We just make it faster and less skill demanded. On I -joists, it's a different story. You know, there are...

ways to do it but it's extremely labor intensive and expensive. And on trusses we basically cannot screw down or screw together that support on the edge or on the side of the trusses so without these brackets or some other devices it would not be possible. So we have to qualify by what kind of floor joists we are using.

Janet Engel (09:07.036)
And with the rapid recess system, what is the cost associated with purchasing your system and then the installer using it?

Josef Erlebach (09:19.598)
It depends of course on the area correct we have different labor rates in different parts of the country but what we hear is that our installed system is anywhere from $1 ,000 to $2 ,500 installed.

Janet Engel (09:27.004)
open.

Janet Engel (09:45.468)
Okay, and what about materials and durability? How are they different or can you give us any specifics on how the materials contribute to durability and long -term performance for that shower?

Josef Erlebach (10:05.422)
What we did is we wanted a lifetime warranty on the product. So what we did was we went out and sourced 16 gauge galvanized steel that we punch. We don't laser cut or anything.

It's all mechanical punching and bending. That way we eliminate most of the problems that would be created by welding and doing all that. And 16 gauge stainless steel, or it's not stainless, 16 gauge steel is gonna be there forever. So that's what we wanted to achieve is lifetime performance on these products.

Janet Engel (10:52.892)
And then you... No, go ahead.

Josef Erlebach (10:52.942)
it's you know we forgot we forgot we forgot to talk about that all this was also done because

people were doing this by hand and kind of

not paying attention to materials and glues and fasteners and all that. So what we also did is we designed our own fasteners for it that we provide in that kit that it would be simple and fast for the people to put all this together.

Janet Engel (11:40.348)
And I wanted to ask you, so you said it's a thousand to twenty five hundred dollars. Is that the cost of the kit or the cost of installing or creating a curbless shower?

Josef Erlebach (11:54.798)
it's cost of the kit, put it together, recessed, that it's ready for the shower pan and for the shower to be installed. So that means cutting out that subfloor, installing the brackets, recessing that floor in between the floor joists and the cost of the kit.

Janet Engel (12:05.244)
Okay.

Janet Engel (12:16.188)
Okay. And well, I know it's hard to tell because like you said, it depends what part of the country you're in. But I know that with the there are three different methods to creating a curbless shower system. Like you've said, either you reframe the floor, you recess the subfloor or you raise the entire floor. And there is a lot of human error. And like you said,

it does require a lot of skill from different professionals in them that are creating the curbless shower like the tile person and several other professionals. Do you know what normally the cost of doing it with one of those traditional methods versus using your rapid recess system?

Josef Erlebach (13:11.694)
Yes, when we did our research we found out that reframing the floor is about $3200 to $3600.

Janet Engel (13:21.884)
Okay.

Janet Engel (13:26.044)
So.

Josef Erlebach (13:26.382)
and it takes a lot of time and skill, correct? And you have to have a structural engineer.

Janet Engel (13:30.012)
And you have to have an engineer, right? And it has to be permitted because it's significant to reframe the floor.

Josef Erlebach (13:37.326)
Yes.

Josef Erlebach (13:43.022)
In the new houses it's not a problem because you already have the framers there, you have the structural engineer on hand usually, so you know it's a week that nobody cares about, but when we do have redo's about 85 % of our products are used in redo's and usually it's not possible.

Janet Engel (13:54.316)
you

Janet Engel (14:02.876)
Okay.

Josef Erlebach (14:06.894)
forget about the cost and the time it takes, sometimes it's not even possible.

We try to take it completely differently. Just make it simple and inexpensive and fast that people actually can have their curbless shower in their houses when they're doing. Most of our products are done with tub to curbless shower conversions. That's the number one right now. Taking out a five foot tub and replacing it with curbless showers. In that space, it's too small.

Janet Engel (14:40.444)
And we, well, and I hate, I personally hate tubs because they are not easy for people to get into, especially older people with mobility issues, balance issues.

And just, it puts everyone at risk for falls, whether you're 80 years old or eight years old. But how easily is it to install your system into an existing bathroom setup?

Josef Erlebach (15:14.894)
It doesn't change. It's still the same easy, about two to two and a half hour job where people cut out the top floor and put our brackets in, cut strips of plywood and install them on top of our brackets. Still the same. It basically doesn't almost change from new construction to renovation.

Janet Engel (15:42.652)
Okay.

Josef Erlebach (15:43.95)
and but what we wanted to do in this year we added our own shower pans to it both tileable and solid surface because what we found out is that manufacturers of shower pans don't really care about accessibility yet so it is much much easier to do a thicker shower pan than thinner shower pan

Janet Engel (16:04.412)
Mm -hmm.

Josef Erlebach (16:11.662)
for two reasons, because in a thin shower pan you have to be exact and precise and you have to use a much higher quality materials to get it done. For example, a lot of shower pan manufacturers use EPS that cannot be razor thin on the edges. So that's why we selected a different...

high density, high compressive strength foam that we can use for our shower pans that can be taken to erase their thin edge. And another thing is that, yep, go ahead.

Janet Engel (16:48.732)
and avoid.

Well, I just wanted to ask you, what is the dynamic coefficient rating of friction for your shower pan?

Josef Erlebach (17:01.166)
That's what I was about to say is that when we were researching shower pans what we found out is that there are four basic materials and none of them was a real thing for us except one but that one which was solid surface was expensive and very very heavy.

So what we tried to do is make it much less expensive and much less lighter than the rest of them. So solid surface is chlorine -like material, correct? It's the product that...

every fast food chain company is using for their counters because of two reasons. It's not, it doesn't promote bacterial and viral growth on top of it and it's refinishable. For us, it has one more even more important part and it is slip resistance. We can finish it to any slip resistance we want. So

Our solid surface shower pans are made of Evo -Nite solid surface made by Trincell and our DCOF is 0 .81. So unheard of in the industry in my opinion because most of the companies that make it out of cultured marble or fiberglass or

Janet Engel (18:29.692)
wow, that's amazing.

Josef Erlebach (18:46.478)
thermoformed acrylic, they have to put some kind of a pattern in it to at least achieve some kind of a slip resistance. And that pattern always gets dirty and it looks kind of different. But for solid surface, when it's refinished correctly, it or finished correctly, the DCOF can be done at 0 .8.

and still be perfectly cleanable and look perfect every time.

Janet Engel (19:17.628)
So you're saying that your pan is smooth, it doesn't have a textured surface on it?

Josef Erlebach (19:26.574)
no texture for us. Smooth.

Janet Engel (19:28.668)
wow, well that's great and for -

Josef Erlebach (19:34.67)
Yep. Go ahead.

Janet Engel (19:35.132)
For listeners that aren't aware of what the DCOF, what that does is, or what that stands for, the DCOF rating comes from that flooring being tested to determine how slippery it is when that floor is wet. And the minimum that we should have in a bathroom

is a DCOF of 0 .42. So if you're flowing, you're saying is 0 .81, that's almost twice the number that is required, which is really outstanding. And also considering that it doesn't have to have a pattern because what you just said is very true, that whenever you have a pattern and

you're dealing with water, you're dealing with shampoo with soap, conditioner, all of these things build up and then they reside in those cracks and edges. And so it does require some scrubbing to get it clean. So if it's smooth, then that is pretty.

Great, and another factor is that someone that has neuropathy in their feet, which means that they don't feel the floor well, they may really have a very bad reaction to texture on the floor.

people with diabetes that neuropathy is very common side effect of diabetes. So lots of people out there with neuropathy to this type of shower pan would be great for them.

Josef Erlebach (21:26.894)
Yeah, it's not just all that, but we also thought about the aesthetics. Because a lot of the people that we talk to about curb us showers and accessibility, they are tired of this institutional look. That it has to be one pace, fiberglass.

hospital looking thing. No, it doesn't have to be. It can be perfectly modern, beautiful functional shower that you have without looking like a bad hospital.

Janet Engel (22:03.939)
Do your shower pans come in different colors?

Josef Erlebach (22:09.934)
No, for now they come only in bright white.

Janet Engel (22:13.276)
in bright white. Okay. And they come in different sizes, you were telling me, correct?

Josef Erlebach (22:19.694)
Yes, there are many different sizes but most of our sales go to tub to curbless shower conversions as I said before. That's number one right now taking out a five foot tub and replacing it with a curbless shower.

Janet Engel (22:38.236)
Joseph, how easy or how challenging has it been to get installers to adopt your Rapid Recess system?

Josef Erlebach (22:52.366)
No.

Let me put it this way, hoping and dreaming is more of an approach than really doing a curbless shower. Most people say, I just bought this curbless shower pan and they're thinking that some kind of a curbless shower fairy is gonna show up overnight and recess that floor for them.

So it was challenging because people don't want to learn new things, correct? We are kind of stuck in what we do and when we were not successful once in an endeavor, we tried to avoid it, or at least normal people do. And so...

Janet Engel (23:26.492)
Hmm

Janet Engel (23:35.9)
Right. Yeah.

Josef Erlebach (23:42.51)
People hear this curbless, their customers want curbless showers and the biggest barrier between getting curbless showers to a customer is the installer and the GC. We don't do curbless showers. Two inch curb is perfectly fine. No, it's not. In curbless showers or accessibility, only perfection will do.

and a lot of the people are still scared of it even though we teach them how to do it but still it is you know it is much much better than it was 10 years ago but people are still scared of it and they approach it like no no way am I going to do a curbless shower I'm going to convince my customers that it leaks and that it's not good for them and that it doesn't provide them any advantages

Janet Engel (24:36.924)
Yeah, I'm really glad I asked you that question because I'm not an installer, but I do talk to installers and know a lot of people who are related to installers in this industry. And you're right, there is a lot of pushback. And many of the times it is the installer or the general contractor that says, you cannot build the curbless shower in your bathroom. It just isn't going to work.

And it's not true. The reality is that they don't know how to do it. And so that's why they tell the customer that you can't get this product. So I'm glad you brought that up because it's not just learning new things, but also people don't want to admit that they don't know how to do things. Right? So it's easier to say, well, it's not possible to put this in your house.

Josef Erlebach (25:12.526)
it.

Josef Erlebach (25:24.718)
Yes, that's correct.

Janet Engel (25:33.245)
And you're right, the two inch threshold, people don't realize that in order for a wheelchair to get over a threshold, it cannot be more than a fourth of an inch or a half an inch beveled. If it's any more than that, a person cannot independently navigate a threshold. And,

when you have it, but the reality is that most people will never be in a wheelchair, right? But then the other reality is that as we get older, most of us will have some changes in our mobility and our deep, our fall risk also increases because

for many different reasons, right? Our vision deteriorates. We don't feel the floor as much. We may have issues with balance. I already have those and I'm only 46. So when you have to navigate a threshold, it is going to put you at risk for a fall. Whether it's two inches and especially if it's five inches. Yes.

Josef Erlebach (26:44.59)
Eh?

Josef Erlebach (26:49.006)
The thing is, what we found out is that, you know, no matter what, you know, you have a surgery, you have a bad fall, and your knee is kind of jacked up, and you just want to shuffle your feet.

If you are shuffling your feet, you're basically not leaving the floor or the solid ground below. As soon as you lift that foot two inches high, you just put yourself at risk because it's slippery and you're out of balance. And suddenly the whole dynamics changes and you can fall.

You know, I'm not saying it to scare people, but I have heard so many stories about how people fell, how they, luckily nothing happened to them. They called us, you know, can we get a curbless shower in this house? Because our contractor is telling us we can't. So, you know, all that is, we hear it every day. That's one thing. Second thing is...

All of us can benefit from curbless showers because curb showers, curb on the shower is there not to hold the water in. That's the biggest misconception in curbless showers. Curb on a shower is there to hide the imperfections in construction, nothing else. Okay, we have to

Janet Engel (28:28.06)
I'm so glad you said that I've never heard that. Can you explain that in detail a little more?

Josef Erlebach (28:37.07)
Well, it is. As I said, I was a mason or still am by trade. So I went to many, many houses. And when people build something and it has to be flush, it's very difficult and labor intensive. When we have some kind of a transition strip,

that we can put on, then we don't care much because that transition strip is going to hide. That's exactly what that curb is doing for the sharp end. It hides the imperfections. It can be slightly off in level. It can be slightly off in orientation. It can be, it doesn't have to be perfect. All that is going to be hidden by that curb.

because it's there as a transition strip. For curbless shower, for true flush entry shower, it has to be flush, it has to be sloped the correct way, and it has to be perfect. So that's where we...

as promoters of Gerba showers are hitting the wall because people don't want to do that perfect job. They don't, well maybe they do, but some of them don't know how. The, but yeah, the imperfections are hidden by that curb.

Janet Engel (30:03.452)
Hmm, that's, I'm thinking about my own shower, which it doesn't have a shower pan, it's tiled shower and it has a five inch threshold. And I know that they didn't slope it correctly to the center drain because a lot of the water pools on one half of the shower. So.

Josef Erlebach (30:24.654)
If it was a curbless shower, it would not work.

Janet Engel (30:27.74)
Right. Right.

Josef Erlebach (30:31.214)
So that's what it is, is basically hiding imperfections. Nothing to do with keeping the water in.

Janet Engel (30:37.852)
Are there...

Yeah, are there incentives other than providing your customers with more options and also better options and the curb of the shower, I would say.

is not only safe, like you said, everyone benefits from a curbless shower, whether you're two years old or 80 years old. You can walk into a curbless shower, you can roll into a curbless shower. That's why the curbless shower is considered both universal design and accessible design, which there aren't that many features that fall under both. Now,

I would say a huge advantage for installers to adopt this practice is you're going to appeal to more customers, not just people with health issues, but you're also going to appeal to younger families and people who are interested in planning for the future, who are interested in universal design and want more contemporary.

options because the reality is that the curbless shower looks way better than the curb shower.

Josef Erlebach (31:57.678)
us because you have two types of customers you have the customers that want it and the customers that need it people usually want it for getting ready down the road or for the open shower design and people that need it need it now and when they need it now it's too late

because now you're paying much more for it, you're not getting what you want and you have to have it so it's now now now. So that's what I always tell people, you know, when you're changing a tub to a shower, do it curbless. Yes, you're going to spend probably $1 ,500 more for the shower, but it's well worth it because now you have something that you can use forever. That's one thing.

Janet Engel (32:21.436)
Mm -hmm.

Janet Engel (32:47.932)
And it's going to increase your home value. So you're going to spend $1 ,500 up front, but you're going to increase your home value by who knows, thousands, tens of thousands, because it's considered a universal design feature. So now you can add that in your listing when you eventually sell your house.

Josef Erlebach (32:51.566)
That's exactly it.

Josef Erlebach (32:59.63)
Yes.

Josef Erlebach (33:05.102)
Yes.

Josef Erlebach (33:11.214)
What I found out was that extremely popular right now is the multi -generational living. And each one of multi -generational houses should have or must have a curbless shower or some kind of a feature like that because most of the people are taking care of older parents or somebody in that house.

So and it's usually not in the master bath it's usually in the guest bath and for that that top to curbless shower transition is absolutely perfect. That's one thing. Second thing is we have to do a better job as a promoters of curbless showers in teaching the

general contractor and the tile guy and the plumber and the designer how to upsell that feature even though it's not an upsell it's not getting taking advantage of your customer you're providing them a service but most of people like me when I was a tile guy definitely scared of upselling their customers they are basically order takers and I think creating a guide

how to offer this to their customers would be tremendously beneficial to the whole community.

Janet Engel (34:47.036)
Yeah, I agree.

Josef Erlebach (34:47.246)
I'm not gonna come up with it because I suck at it. But the thing is that we are trying to teach our customers that are tile guys, mainly, that they are not upselling, they are not taking advantage. Yes, it's gonna cost your customer $15 ,000, $2 ,000 more. Yes, but they are already spending $15 ,000, $20 ,000 on the bathroom. And now they can actually have what they are going to use forever.

Janet Engel (34:51.708)
you

Josef Erlebach (35:17.166)
And that's one thing that stands in our way is the communication between our customers that are the tile guys and contractors, GeckoFold trades and their customer, the end customer that wants Curbless Showers, doesn't even know it yet, maybe some of them.

but the contractor is scared to offer it to the people. And there's another reason, correct, that they are scared because it happened to me many times when I tell people, have you thought about doing curbless shower in your house? And they look at me like they want to kill me. We don't need it yet. We are not that old. I'm like, my wife didn't need it when she was 30. She needed it when she was 30 and a half.

Janet Engel (35:47.388)
you

Janet Engel (36:10.972)
I don't believe this.

Josef Erlebach (36:12.43)
So you know there's a misconception that curbless showers is or are for really old people only. So I think yeah I think if we if we as an industry come together with some kind of a

Janet Engel (36:23.644)
or for handicapped people.

Josef Erlebach (36:33.39)
guide for contractors and tar guys and plumbers how to sell a curb a shower without imposing onto the people without feeling right there upselling them or taking advantage of them and explaining to the customer that we are not selling them something that they need now because they are they're old we're telling them to upgrading and future -proofing their houses down the road

Janet Engel (36:44.796)
Mm -hmm.

Josef Erlebach (36:59.662)
I think we're going to be much better off and our customers are going to be much better off also.

Janet Engel (37:03.996)
Yes, I agree that. Don't spend your customers money. Don't save them money. Don't spend their money. Just give them options. Well, that's a very, I think that is a.

Josef Erlebach (37:15.246)
Yes.

Janet Engel (37:20.188)
good proposition that you've set forth. I personally think you have a great product and I am currently recommending it to a real estate developer that I work with. So I hope that we get to work together in the future and that you become more successful with your messaging and getting more installers to adopt your product.

Josef Erlebach (37:49.198)
Awesome. I really appreciate it, Jen. Thank you very much.

Janet Engel (37:51.944)
Yes, Joseph. It was great having you on today and thank you for educating us because not very many people are knowledgeable about this. Even, like we said, even installers that do this for a living are knowledgeable. So imagine the rest of us, right? All right, well, thank you so much. All right, well, great. Thank you, Joseph.

Josef Erlebach (38:11.63)
Yeah, curbless showers is the only thing we do.

Josef Erlebach (38:19.758)
Thank you very much. You have a great day.