Planning for Aging In Place with Nancy Griffin

In this conversation, Janet Engel interviews Nancy Griffin, CEO and founder of Glowing Older, about her journey in the podcasting world and the evolving perspectives on aging.

They discuss the rampant ageism in society, the importance of planning for aging, and the innovations in senior living and technology that are shaping the future of aging well.

Nancy shares insights from her 190 episodes, emphasizing the need for a values-based approach to aging and the significance of intergenerational connections.

The conversation highlights the impact of COVID-19 on senior living and the necessity of community engagement in addressing the challenges faced by older adults.

Takeaways

Ageism is a significant barrier to aging well.

Planning for aging should start early and be values-based.

Innovations in technology are crucial for aging in place.

The Greenhouse Project offers a better model for senior living.

COVID-19 highlighted the flaws in traditional senior living models.

Intergenerational connections can benefit both younger and older generations.

Community engagement is essential for addressing aging challenges.

Caregiving often leads to health and financial strain for caregivers.

Conversations about aging need to be destigmatized.

Older adults can lead fulfilling lives with proper planning and support.

Sound Bites

"Ageism affects everything, whether it's cultural or societal."

"We're starting to have the conversation about ageism."

"Technology for aging in place is the biggest area of growth."

Chapters

00:00 The Birth of Glowing Older Podcast

03:31 Changing Perspectives on Aging

06:08 Innovations in Aging and Senior Living

10:30 The Role of Technology in Aging

14:14 Trends in Senior Living and Aging Well

18:15 The Impact of COVID-19 on Senior Living

22:46 Lessons Learned from 190 Episodes

29:34 Planning for Aging: A Values-Based Approach

34:30 Coaching and Community Engagement

38:34 The Importance of Intergenerational Connections

Transcript

Janet Engel (00:01.552)
Hello everyone, thank you for being with me today. Our guest is Nancy Griffin. She is the CEO and founder of Glowing Older. She started her company four years ago and it began with a podcast. So Nancy has been recording a podcast that is very popular. It's in the top 10 % globally. It's called Glowing Older and she interviews

experts that have to do with innovation and aging well. Nancy, thank you for being with us today.

Nancy Griffin (00:37.222)
thank you so much for having me, Janet. I'm honored to be here.

Janet Engel (00:40.214)
Yes. So tell us about how your journey started with the podcast.

Nancy Griffin (00:48.248)
Yeah, well, I come from spa and wellness. I started at Cornell Hotel School in the mid -90s researching the spa industry and been involved with spa and wellness. And then March 2020, I came back from a conference with COVID and got calls from all my clients saying, sorry, all the spas are shutting down. We're letting you go. So I had a lot of free time.

That said, was seeing wellness infiltrating into senior living. Some of my consultant friends were starting to do projects in senior living, and my grandparents were Quakers, and they helped found a CCRC, continuing care retirement community, now called Life Plan Community, outside of Baltimore, Maryland. So both my grandparents aged out there.

And even though it was supposed to be one of the most progressive places in the country, it was very institutional, which is why, of course, Janet, nine out of 10 people want to age in place, which is what you do. So I just became fascinated with the senior living industry to begin with. And then, of course, that morphed into aging in place. But I thought the best way for me to learn about the industry and get kind of an informal MBA in senior living and aging services

Janet Engel (01:50.64)
Great.

Nancy Griffin (02:08.984)
was to start a podcast interviewing experts. So I just, that's how I met you from one expert to the next. I just started meeting people and now here we are four years later, we're wrapping up season 19. We have 190 episodes. So I just feel like I've had the privilege of becoming smarter with each guest.

Janet Engel (02:31.856)
well, that's a great way to put it. And I'm curious, Nancy, because four years ago, podcasting wasn't nearly as popular as it is today. And in fact, only two and a half years ago when I started my podcast, there were only 700 ,000 podcasts and now there are over three million. Do you know what was the number back when you started four years ago?

Nancy Griffin (02:34.189)
Hmm

Nancy Griffin (02:52.12)
Yeah, 2 .9, something like that.

Nancy Griffin (02:58.55)
You know, I really didn't have any idea what I was doing. had, I took a course and I had a consultant help me with the basics, but I've learned so much from you, Janet, just in our couple of conversations. So I feel like, I was pretty ignorant and just kind of going in blind a little bit and just wanted to interview these amazing people and then just put it out there on the platform. So I think I've gotten a little smarter, but I really don't know how many podcasts I think that you're right.

Janet Engel (03:08.799)
what?

Nancy Griffin (03:27.072)
It's grown exponentially. Everyone wants their own little pet project now.

Janet Engel (03:31.184)
Yeah. So tell us how has the concept of aging changed with what you've learned, especially since you started four years ago, because I see changes in since I became CAPS certified, which was also four years ago in 2020. But I wasn't interviewing experts like you were. So tell me, how has your concept of aging changed over time?

Nancy Griffin (03:59.032)
Well, gosh, over 190 episodes, there was a couple themes that kept coming up. And I'll talk about how those two things have changed. The first one is ageism is rampant. I didn't really understand when I started that ageism affects everything, whether it's cultural, societal, or internalized ageism. It affects our ability to live well into our later years. So that was...

one of the key themes. And then the other one was because of internalized ageism, we don't plan. And I'm sure that you must come up against this all the time when it comes to your clients is that it's scary. We plan for what we value. We plan for a vacation. We plan for college. But because of this internalized ageism and societal ageism, we really weren't planning. So I think one of the best things I've seen in the past four years

is we're opening up the conversation. Ashton Applewhite, who wrote the book Manifesto Against Ageism, talks about how it's really this internalized ageism that affects everything blindly, but we're starting to have the conversation and I think the narrative will change. Culture changes very slowly, like kind of turning the Titanic. So I think in the past few years, I have seen some change.

that like look at the ASA, American Society on Aging, their whole campaign this year is about ageism. Their whole conference is about ageism. There's been a lot with the political candidates and talking about ageism. So hopefully these conversations will start changing things. I'm also seeing changes when it comes to people planning and a lot of that, are you wonderful OTs.

I think are really driving change in this industry and really getting people to plan and plan early. So I think there's positive changes, but there's also lot of frustration because of the ageism piece.

Janet Engel (06:08.202)
Mm -hmm. I am reading the book the longevity economy, which is just fascinating Yes, and I'm on the chapter that talks about how baby boomers are going to debunk this negative View on being old because they've already changed the way the rest of the world works. They've been doing that

Nancy Griffin (06:14.707)
Mm, Joe Coughlin, mm -hmm.

Janet Engel (06:36.048)
you know, since their whole lives. And so now baby boomers are, as they become age 65, you know, up until the year 2030, that they're not going to be satisfied with the products and services and the stereotypes that are going to be put on them. And so they're going to be the change makers, which I think is just fabulous because I would love to see a world where

We companies, especially businesses, saw the older consumer as an asset and someone worth investing in as opposed to a consumer who only is interested in services or products that are geared towards relaxation or medical necessity.

Nancy Griffin (07:28.632)
Exactly. So true. So true. Couldn't agree with you more on that.

Janet Engel (07:33.076)
Yeah. So tell us what are some innovations that you have come across with your guests for the aging population?

Nancy Griffin (07:47.554)
Gosh, well, there's so many, but the first thing that comes to mind is housing. I think that the industry tends to, when I say industry, I'm referring to senior living and aging services. I think there's always been this silo between senior living and aging in place. And I think it's starting to morph and there's more of a blend of

with aging in place, I think we're talking a lot more about just the home. So you're talking more about the community and what's going on in the community and is it walkable? Does it have healthy food available? You know, those kinds of things. So I think we're opening up the envelope. and then I think that when it comes to senior living, we're moving away, hopefully slowly away from an institutional approach to a person centered approach.

Janet Engel (08:40.026)
Mm -hmm.

Nancy Griffin (08:42.328)
which as Jill Vitaly -Awesome, who wrote, changing the status quo of senior living a mind shift, she says that it's messy. It's messy. It's nice when you have senior living and it's like, boom, boom, boom. And these are the things that we do and we have these engagement activities and all this, but it really is much more complicated than that and more individualized. So I think that hopefully we're starting to look at the

person and their needs and realizing that you've seen one 65 year old, you've seen one 65 year old or one 85 year old, right? So I think there's this more person centered approach is opening up a lot of different avenues. And then of course, I don't think we can forget the age tech piece of things. I don't think that an older person uses the phrase age tech. I think it's kind of an internal.

Janet Engel (09:19.372)
if I may.

Nancy Griffin (09:38.946)
phrase that we use in the industry, but different technologies, whether they're AI driven, remote monitors for different kinds of sensing, even of course, wearables is a huge thing. we're becoming a world where we can monitor so many things through different technologies. And I think that that's contributing to wellness. I think that it allows us

to take control of our sleep or take control of our eating habits or exercise. So I think it's an exciting time. We'll see how AI, you you and I have had the conversation about how AI can really streamline a lot of things in your business. And I think we're also seeing that it can streamline a lot of things in people's lives. Interesting time.

Janet Engel (10:07.888)
them.

Janet Engel (10:30.672)
It totally can. And I can give you an example. Just yesterday, I was using AI to help me figure out a lunch menu for my 12 year old son. So he gets tired of, you know, basically we've been giving him wraps. So now he doesn't want wraps anymore, but he can't heat his food. He also can't refrigerate it. So.

Nancy Griffin (10:43.842)
So awesome.

Nancy Griffin (10:56.588)
Wow.

Janet Engel (10:57.584)
I asked AI, what are some healthy options that I can give my 12 year old for lunch that don't require refrigeration or heat? And it gave me a whole list of good options. So there you go, using it in your everyday life.

Nancy Griffin (11:14.764)
Yeah. Yes. I mean, you're using it in your business and your life. And I think it's going to change for the better, hopefully for the better.

Janet Engel (11:19.129)
you

Janet Engel (11:25.38)
Well, I think it will. And what you were saying, technology for aging in place, I believe, is going to be the biggest area of growth because technology can do so much to make our lives more comfortable, safer, but also with a

the society aging in general, we're not going to have caregivers available to be physically there with people. And so we're going to have to rely on technology, especially when you have parents and adult children that live in different cities, different states. I personally really like the whole house monitoring systems because then...

You're not relying on the person remembering to put that on or being compliant with using the wearable. And then that whole house monitoring system is able to detect if someone never left a room.

or let's say they went in the bathroom and they've stayed in there too long or they're laying horizontally and they can communicate that information which is so vital because if you let's say you fell because you had a stroke which as an OT I saw that scenario many times with my patients where someone didn't find them until three days later and then now it was a catastrophic result of the stroke because they hadn't received

that the medicine that can break up the clots. And then people who fall and have a hip fracture, know, just it goes on and on where someone can save your life if they can find you early.

Nancy Griffin (13:13.674)
so traumatic. mean really. Yeah.

Nancy Griffin (13:21.72)
Well, I'm sure it must become a big part of your business is the whole technology piece is probably just a whole other layer of services that you can provide to your clients. And that interoperability piece is probably something that you have to deal with all the time is how does Alexa talk to this, talk to that, right?

Janet Engel (13:41.608)
And really it is, I wouldn't expect to know how to do it. I would always recommend someone to a technology expert, but as an aging in place specialist, being able to educate the client on how technology can help them age in place and how can they incorporate it into all of the different systems they have and then guide them to the right professional.

Nancy Griffin (14:10.626)
That's why we have you.

Janet Engel (14:13.072)
Yeah. So tell me, tell me about your other business, senior trade. What trends have you noticed with the business of aging well?

Nancy Griffin (14:14.081)
Hahaha

Nancy Griffin (14:23.904)
Yeah.

gosh. Well, so we started senior trade because I was really frustrated with the products in senior living and just the later life industry, if you will. It was very siloed. We referenced earlier that senior living versus aging in place versus skilled nursing, all these kinds of things were siloed. And then a lot of things were closed off and pay per play. Like you had to...

Janet Engel (14:46.992)
Mm

Nancy Griffin (14:53.61)
subscribe to something. So I wanted to start a platform for professionals in senior living and aging services, where we can talk about this innovation. So the tagline for senior trade is innovation in the business of aging well. So it's a business of aging well. it's everything that people need to know. A lot of what we share is research, breaking news.

So a trend that I mentioned earlier are these alternative housing kind of concepts. One of our more popular stories was Disney entering the senior living industry. What are they gonna do? How are they gonna change things? We also talk about breaking news, things like a place for mom getting caught for basically a little bit of self -dealing and some...

things that they were doing that were not serving the older adult. So it really is a business platform. So it would be news from say, Argentum, which is the for -profit senior living organization or leading age, which is the not for -profit organization or the ASA, the American Society on Aging, all these different organizations. try to consolidate, share news.

Janet Engel (15:50.106)
you

Janet Engel (15:57.199)
you

Nancy Griffin (16:16.824)
We also love topics like lifelong learning. The university housing, senior housing trend is a big one. In fact, Andrew Carl from Georgetown started at universityretirementcommunities .com where he's aggregating all of the communities around the country and the world that are attached to a university where older adults can go and learn. We talk a lot about purpose.

Janet Engel (16:43.759)
Hmm.

Nancy Griffin (16:45.632)
You and I have touched on this before, but how does a community or someone like you and OT help an older adult find their purpose? And knowing that having a purpose has so many positive benefits. So we try to really talk about more than just census, which is the phrase for occupancy and senior living.

Janet Engel (16:57.818)
you

Nancy Griffin (17:14.008)
which a lot of senior housing news and senior living foresight, some of those, they really cover that real small window of staffing issues and occupancy issues and how do we get more people in the doors and all that, where we wanted to start a broader conversation about all the things that are going on in the business of aging well. So a lot of those things I just touched on are the real trends that are sticking.

Janet Engel (17:14.17)
Mm -hmm.

Nancy Griffin (17:43.436)
that are gonna be around for a while.

Janet Engel (17:44.624)
Mm -hmm. And positive changes.

instead of just talking about people moving, which generally moves indicate that someone has either had an accident or a change in function. And that's why they no longer are living in their homes. Because like you said earlier, the majority of people want to remain in their homes for as long as possible. So moving is usually a negative thing. Now,

Nancy Griffin (17:49.954)
Yeah.

Nancy Griffin (18:10.274)
Yes.

Nancy Griffin (18:15.906)
Well, there's some, have you ever heard of terror management theory? It's a real thing. I think I read about it in Ashton Applewhite's book, but I mean, it basically means we're scared shitless, pardon my language, of aging. So because we're so scared of aging, we don't wanna think about it. And there's that real just like, we put blinders on and we don't wanna see. that's why it takes an incident to make a change.

Janet Engel (18:33.771)
Mm

Nancy Griffin (18:44.828)
Because you're not planning for it, you're just going to keep putting those blinders on until someone falls or until someone has a disease state or something. And then it's like, then it's a big fire drill.

Janet Engel (18:45.466)
Mm

Janet Engel (18:58.736)
Mm -hmm, and if there wasn't such a negative view of what it is to age and like you said earlier You you've seen one person at 65 you've seen one person at 65 because aging is So specific to that person so variable and you have this guy gamut that runs from age 50 to You know, whatever it could be a hundred So you have everything?

and in between. And so if it wasn't so negative to be old, then people wouldn't ignore the process of aging because they wouldn't dread it. And do you know that our happiness actually increases year after year as we get older? so aging

Nancy Griffin (19:42.669)
Yes!

Nancy Griffin (19:54.773)
U -curve.

Janet Engel (19:56.3)
Yeah, aging actually comes with many gifts. Of course, it has its drawbacks, but it comes with many gifts. And as women, we can say the gift of time, because when you have children, younger children in the house, you don't have very much time for yourself. And so that's one of the things that is it. Say it again, Nancy.

Nancy Griffin (20:19.458)
Gotta make those school lunches, Janet.

You have to make those school lunches.

Janet Engel (20:25.808)
Yeah, so one of the things I've been enjoying with my son being 12 years old now is that I have more time where I can go to lunch with a friend or I can leave him at home for two hours where before I couldn't do that at all. So I think...

that if we could change our negative view on aging, which according to the longevity economy, the baby boomers are going to do that.

Nancy Griffin (20:58.648)
Yeah, we'll see. They're just getting ready. The oldest, the average age of someone in senior living is 83. So it's a care facility. It's like people go there because they need some sort of level of care. And that happens, the need for that happens in the 80s. So we'll see what the boomers do, right? But I think that...

Janet Engel (21:08.888)
See you.

model.

Nancy Griffin (21:27.882)
It's more than just the boomers. think the young people too, know, that we're all starting to realize that this thing about inevitable decline is just not true. It's a false narrative. And we talk a lot there. I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Bill Thomas. He's a gerontologist, but he talks about visible signs of aging and invisible. And a lot of the positive things about aging are invisible.

Janet Engel (21:38.35)
Right, it's not.

Nancy Griffin (21:57.72)
I can't run the quarter mile as fast as I could in my twenties, right? I have gray hair, I have wrinkles, but I also have a wisdom. I don't sweat the small stuff. I am more focused on friends and family and what's important. All those kinds of things, nobody can see. So it's the metrics upon which we judge the aging process that needs to change, I think a little bit, because if it's just about gray hair and wrinkles,

Janet Engel (22:18.224)
Break.

Nancy Griffin (22:27.934)
then yeah, it looks bad. We are, right? It's inevitable decline if those are the metrics that you're judging aging on.

Janet Engel (22:31.82)
It's negative.

Janet Engel (22:38.21)
Although I have seen many people that actually are better looking as an older person than they were as a younger person. Yeah. So you have a very interesting perspective because you started your podcast and started working in this niche industry prior to COVID -19. And so,

Nancy Griffin (22:46.646)
Well, that's good to hear.

Nancy Griffin (23:00.952)
Yeah. Well, no, actually not really. August 2020. So we were in it, but I will say that the, the fallout from it in senior living was nearly as bad as the, the actual COVID. I mean, obviously older adults were dying in nursing homes like crazy. It was a horrible time. but a lot of good things came out of COVID in senior living is I think

we really realize how horrible it is. And it shed light on how we treat people when they get older.

Janet Engel (23:40.7)
Mm -hmm. Yes, and how we really need to, like you said, plan, but really do it with purpose so that you have options later on.

Nancy Griffin (23:55.617)
Yeah.

Janet Engel (23:56.152)
and don't have to move to a senior living facility because then, you know, I saw it as an OT going, I was still working as an OT when COVID happened going into these senior living facilities. And after about three weeks, they weren't letting us go in anymore either. So that meant that most people didn't have anyone coming to see them. wasn't just family members. They didn't have members of their own.

Nancy Griffin (24:12.918)
Yeah.

Nancy Griffin (24:17.186)
Mm

Janet Engel (24:23.177)
medical team coming to see them unless they had a wound or they had diabetes and needed insulin. Those were nurses were the only clinicians that were allowed to still see residents.

Nancy Griffin (24:39.062)
And the peer -to -peer connection obviously got stripped away too.

Janet Engel (24:41.686)
yeah, that. Yes, yes. So how have you seen a change since you did start your podcast at the very early part of COVID? And then now here we are almost five years later.

Nancy Griffin (25:01.186)
I think that the senior living industry really had to take a hard look at how they were operating. Are you familiar with the Greenhouse Project? It's a concept that was developed by Dr. Bill Thomas actually a couple of decades ago, but it's grown into a worldwide, it's a worldwide effort, they're smaller skilled nursing.

Janet Engel (25:15.649)
No, no, tell me about that.

Nancy Griffin (25:31.33)
that are built around smaller communities instead of that industrial, institutional, hallway, prison -looking layout. So it's a different layout and Greenhouse was actually one of the only, was I think the only skilled nursing communities that had no deaths, zero deaths from COVID. And a lot of that was because of the way it was structured, that the staff

you have the same staff, they actually are kind of part of your community and your little hub and spoke kind of, you have a community, but it's not so institutional in that it wasn't as dangerous for disease transmission, but it also just works. worked for staff. The staff are trained in different areas, so they'll cook and they'll learn about this and they'll do this. it's more of a...

like I said, a community approach. So I think that the world realized that that probably is a better model for COVID, of course, and all the other things to come, but also just a better model. So I think this kind of shedding light on institutions really changed. think also a lot of innovation came out of COVID when it came to technology.

When it came to finding alternative ways to connect with loved ones, a lot of different technologies came out for adult children to be able to interact with their parents via the television or be able to monitor their parents remotely. So I think that there are a lot of technologies to be born out of the limitations of being

with each other, whether it's VR, there's a company Thrive that has VR headsets where if you don't have mobility, you can interact with other people, you can go into the community and play golf or bridge or whatever and interact with other people. So I think those are the two things to come out of COVID that strike me the most is the technology piece and the

Nancy Griffin (27:57.549)
need to really look at the housing, what kind of things we're building and why. Sorry, dog.

Janet Engel (28:06.994)
Do you know of any other communities in the US or perhaps Canada or Europe that are following this model?

Nancy Griffin (28:15.18)
The greenhouse? Yes, you can go to greenhouse. I think they rebranded, but you can just Google greenhouse or we can put this in the show notes if you want. But yes, there's communities all over not just the country, but the world. And it got a lot of news, a lot of press coverage during COVID because there was zero death.

Janet Engel (28:28.099)
Yes.

Nancy Griffin (28:40.79)
mean, as you're hearing all these doomsday scenarios and all these other communities, the Greenhouse Project just floated along without anyone passing from COVID. So it's a pretty great concept. So yes, it is a growing concept.

Janet Engel (28:58.096)
Yeah, that's remarkable. Nancy, can you tell us what you've learned with all of these interviews? I think you've said you've had over 190 episodes, which is remarkable. So what have you learned personally about what people can do and what are the most important things that people can do to age well at any age? Because I believe

Nancy Griffin (29:07.68)
Yes. Yes. Thank you.

Janet Engel (29:27.95)
People who age well start way before we consider them to be old. So what's your opinion?

Nancy Griffin (29:34.336)
Yeah, I mean, so true. We do these events called Better with Age events where we talk, some of them are with wine and cheese, things that get better with age. But we're actually talking now about reaching parent teacher organizations and getting to people younger. And one of our advisors said high school. And then my partner chimed in who has an infant and a toddler. And she said, no,

K1 or whatever, like you need to start even earlier. So I think that starting early in your process of planning is the most important thing that I've learned. And what that means is planning for what matters most to you. And that will be specific to you. I mean, everyone is different. So,

We at Glowing Older, we have a process that we call home health and heart, takes you through all the different, home is obviously where you live, your community, that sort of thing. Health is gonna be all the different aspects of wellness and keeping yourself healthy, whether it's physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, whatever. And then the heart piece is what matters most to you. So we start with a values -based approach.

Janet Engel (30:58.116)
you

Nancy Griffin (31:00.288)
So everyone has different values. It's like, for me, it's like, I have two horses, horses are really important to me. If I wanted to world travel, I would have to balance those values. Who's gonna take care of my horses? Who's gonna, you know, why I world travel and where's the money gonna come because I'm spending all my money on horses. How am I gonna go world travel? So the values based process takes you through

Janet Engel (31:18.01)
Mm

Nancy Griffin (31:30.2)
a thought process and a deeper connection with what is it that you really want. And then when you discover what you really want, then you can start the, like you mentioned, the financial piece, the medical care piece and plan accordingly. I think I mentioned to you in one of our previous conversations, my mom is 81 and my father passed suddenly five years ago. And she was

helping me with my podcast with my show notes because she's a former book editor. And after so many seasons, she came to me and she said, I'm gonna play on. She said, I'm going to build an accessory dwelling unit. I'm going to convert my garage. She left a little corner for her Tesla to charge. And the rest of that garage is now an ADU and accessory dwelling unit. And she did that so that she could have a place for

Janet Engel (32:08.144)
Hahaha!

Nancy Griffin (32:26.188)
a home healthcare worker if she needs it, when she needs it, because she knows that she does not ever want to move into a senior living community. It's not for her. that process of knowing, okay, well, this is what I don't want. And I'm sure that you with your clientele often get, I want to stay at home. And then you probably tour the home and you go, my gosh, there's a lot of work to be done.

Janet Engel (32:37.85)
Mm

Nancy Griffin (32:54.85)
whether it's there's no primary bedroom or bathroom on the first floor, there's a step entry, there's an accessible bathroom or not wide enough hallways or whatever, the sooner that people start putting that plan together, the better the opportunity they have to come up with the funds for it, to plan to save for the funds for it and to reach that point where they may need it, where they are ready.

this whole philosophy of I'm just going to wait it out and hope for the best is flawed. And you and I both know that.

Janet Engel (33:31.905)
Yeah, and then they can also get what they want which for most people is an attractive Modification and then of course one like you were saying heart How does it? coincide with what you want and what's important to you and And then it will also increase your home value

Because at one point we're all going to sell. Either you're going to sell your own home or your heirs are going to sell it for you. having your home be worth more money because now you've created modifications that include hopefully universal design and are going to make your home safer, more comfortable, more functional.

Nancy Griffin (34:19.166)
Absolutely. So, so true.

Janet Engel (34:23.438)
So Nancy, I know you've mentioned that there's a coaching part to your business. Tell us about that.

Nancy Griffin (34:30.87)
Yeah, well, so we help people, we do one -on -one coaching, but we find that it's very difficult to get people, I'm not gonna lie, I'm gonna be totally transparent here, hard to get people to pay for coaching on aging well, because people don't invest in what they don't value. So if you think it's inevitable decline, why invest in it?

Janet Engel (34:56.165)
No.

Nancy Griffin (34:58.07)
So we started out with our one -on -one coaching, doing a lot of free consultations, had some trouble growing that one -on -one coaching. So that's why we launched the Better with Age events and Better at Work events. So we started in country clubs, we're going into senior living, we're doing a couple of senior living events in Northern California, but it's really about lowering the stigma around having these kinds of conversations.

allowing people that peer -to -peer connection that makes them feel like they're not alone in the process. Because as you know, one of the things that comes up with the sandwich generation, which you are with your child and older parents, is just this inability to protect yourself as you're going through this process. Abby Levy, one of our advisors calls it the panini generation, meaning you're getting squished from all sides.

Janet Engel (35:56.182)
Okay, that's great. It's not a sandwich. It's a panini.

Nancy Griffin (35:57.458)
Yeah, it's a panini. one of the things with our Better with Age events and then the Better at Work events, which we do with staff, different intergenerational staff, is this idea of lowering the stigma so that you can have some of these harder conversations. So obviously getting lubed up with a little bit of good wine helps and then talking about, okay, well,

why does wine get better with age? Why does cheese get better with age? Why do you get better with age? Well, we all get more complex, right? It's like that's kind of the common denominator between all those things is that we get more complex. And so we go through all the different, we talk about positive aging, we talk about ageism and how it affects you because if you can become aware of it,

I like to say once you see ageism, you can't unsee it and you will see it everywhere. You will see it in movies and television and media and everywhere. And the more you can point it out and say, that's that, I think the better chance you have of overcoming your own limiting beliefs around it. So that's why we've moved to more of an event format. We certainly offer the one -on -one coaching, but the events allow us to

Janet Engel (37:01.018)
you

Nancy Griffin (37:23.692)
kind of allow people to come together and have these conversations and know that they're not alone. Because it can be very lonely when you are kind of adrift and you don't have a plan for what matters most to you. And a lot of that is caregiver. We talk to a lot of caregivers. And as you know, we have a caregiver crisis in this country.

Janet Engel (37:39.363)
and

Nancy Griffin (37:53.1)
the amount of unpaid caregiving, mostly by women, but it is devastating. And people come out of it with their health compromised and their finances in ruin and all that, because they thought what was gonna be six days ended up being six years or whatever. So talking about these things early and what might come up and different scenarios for what you're gonna do.

allows you the freedom to have choice and not be stuck because we see a lot of people that are just plain stuck.

Janet Engel (38:27.226)
Mm -hmm.

Janet Engel (38:34.286)
Hmm, you know, I think the more you talk about this topic I Want to liken it to perimenopause and menopause That's the stage I'm familiar with currently and I I can make the same parallels

Nancy Griffin (38:46.988)
Yeah. Yeah.

Janet Engel (38:58.67)
because women in perimenopause, especially one that you first start going into it and you're experiencing all these new changes with your body and your mental state that you are unfamiliar with and you do feel like you are alone because...

People aren't necessarily telling you, I'm sweating at night too. I'm not sleeping through the night. My libido is low, all these things. People aren't volunteering this information.

Nancy Griffin (39:36.15)
No, we've been suffering in silence.

Janet Engel (39:38.864)
Yeah, yeah. So I do have a website for what you were saying about ageism and how we can become more aware of our own biases. It's called Project Implicit. Here, let me put my glasses on because I can't read my own writing. You see, you don't have to be 80 to not see well.

Project Implicit Harvard Take a Test. And you can take a quiz that will.

shed light on your own implicit biases.

Nancy Griffin (40:22.198)
I love that. Everyone should take that because it's, yeah.

Janet Engel (40:25.058)
Yes, I'll put it in the show notes, but I'll say it once again. It's Project Implicit Harvard Take a Test.

Nancy Griffin (40:36.28)
That's great. I think everyone should take that. It's the place to start. People often ask, what's the best way to overcome ageism? And the World Health Organization has spelled it out. There's three ways that they've identified. The first is taking a look at your own bias. It starts with us. It starts with our own internal process. The second one is policy, governmental policy, which...

Janet Engel (40:38.704)
Thank

Nancy Griffin (41:05.752)
The ASA, American Society on Aging, has an amazing ageism resource site on On Aging Institute. They have all kinds of good stats on ageism, different kinds of ageism, how you can overcome it. But they recommend writing to your senators and saying, look, you have a constituency that's older and these are the things you need to be thinking about. So there's that. And then the third is intergenerational connections.

which is why there's like Eldera is an app to put older adults together with younger people based on different likes and hobbies and such. And that's an AI driven technology program. I think that the intergenerational piece is really huge. And I think that's one of the trends we're seeing with the university housing trend and opening up this kind of.

not sequestering old people away from the rest of the community. Because that not putting baby in the corner once you're a certain age and you're over here and integrating them into the culture is the way we've always done it. It's just that we kind of got waylaid, Janet, in the past few decades or whatever the way we treat older adults. But younger people and older people interacting benefits both the younger and the older people.

Janet Engel (42:30.138)
Mm -hmm.

Nancy Griffin (42:31.708)
And it helps those younger people realize that, okay, you're not completely useless. so it changes their perceptions as well.

Janet Engel (42:44.3)
Yeah, and I want to say I had the benefit of experiencing that as an OT working in home health with the geriatric population. And that was one of the favorite aspects of my job was the relationships that I developed with my patients and their stories. And I learned so much. met people that I met African Americans that used to have to walk two hours.

to get to school. And for me, that was something I couldn't imagine. And this person, this one person that I talked to about their experience, they did that every day, walked two hours to school, two hours back, because they weren't, there was no transportation, there was no school close to where they lived. So if they wanted to go to school, they had to put in the work.

I talked to another woman that she was the first female to ever work for Smith & Wesson engraving guns or firearms. And she showed me very proudly this book from Smith & Wesson with her picture when she was in her 20s.

and the work that she did. And it was just fascinating. I came home all the time with stories about, I met the most interesting person. And it really shapes you.

Nancy Griffin (44:12.448)
Yeah, and I think we forget that. We forget that. we actually were, Glowing Older were really big on language and the language we use. we use the phrase care partner, not caregiver, because caregiver implies one side. And care partner is like, no, you're getting something too. But that's another thing at Glowing Older that we talk about a lot is attitude and attitude of gratitude, which is...

Janet Engel (44:28.014)
right.

Nancy Griffin (44:40.428)
It sounds trite in a way, but it's not because we have the choice in the moment of how we're going to react to something. And if you're a caregiver, you need to protect yourself so that you can give your best to that other person and see the good in it. I think if you get mired in being overwhelmed and having too much on your plate, then you're not going to see

Janet Engel (44:43.834)
Mm

Nancy Griffin (45:08.866)
the beauty in the caregiving.

Janet Engel (45:10.328)
Nancy, I think we've lost your, okay, I think I got you back, your internet connection. Yeah. Can you repeat what you were saying?

Nancy Griffin (45:14.774)
Yeah, it blipped. saw that. Sorry about that. I'm back.

Yeah, I think if a caregiver doesn't take care of themselves and they're not in balance, then it becomes really hard to see the good in something, right? You're only gonna see it as a burden. And that I know people like you, Janet, that have looked after older adults and they've gotten a lot out of it and they've seen the beauty in it and the reciprocity.

Janet Engel (45:35.994)
Right.

Nancy Griffin (45:51.828)
If you're not in balance and you're not healthy and you're not taking care of yourself, you're much less likely to see the beauty in it.

Janet Engel (45:59.566)
Yeah, and that's why I always tell and I think as women being especially mothers, we have a very narrow relationship with caregiving. And it has taken me many years to realize that if you don't take care of yourself, how can you take care of other people? You can't. That's the answer is you simply can't.

Nancy Griffin (46:25.226)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's sad in a way that we have to have these kind of conversations, but we have to have these kind of conversations because if we don't, then we are suffering in silence, Janet, like we talked about earlier.

Janet Engel (46:39.183)
Yeah.

Janet Engel (46:42.798)
Well, Nancy, it was great having this conversation with you. I think your website has such great resources and I welcome caregivers or care partners and as well as older adults to go to your website and if they can go to one of your community events because it sounds like they're a lot of fun if you're giving out cheese and wine.

Nancy Griffin (47:08.888)
Well, if you want to host an event, reach out to us, nancy at glowingolder .com and we'd love to have an event anywhere with anyone. We love talking about this stuff, Janet.

Janet Engel (47:22.038)
Okay, great. And I will have your website and also your email and your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. But it was great speaking with you, Nancy. Thank you.

Nancy Griffin (47:34.454)
Thank you. We can't wait to have you on Glowing Older.

Janet Engel (47:37.754)
well, I am looking forward to it too. And that will be not until next year because I know you said you guys already have all of your guest slots taken, which is great.

Nancy Griffin (47:49.432)
Well, we have one more season. We have season 20, which ends in November, and that's booked. But then when we go to next season, we are definitely going to have you.

Janet Engel (47:58.86)
Okay, great. Well, I look forward to it. Thank you, Nancy.

Nancy Griffin (48:02.924)
Thank you.