Navigating the World of Senior Move Management

Summary

In this conversation, Janet Engel interviews Nicole Ramer, a certified senior move manager and founder of Organized Haven. 

They discuss the evolution of the senior move management industry, the emotional and logistical challenges faced by seniors during transitions, and the unique services offered by senior move managers. 

Nicole shares insights on the importance of space planning, the use of technology, and the value of hiring a professional to assist with downsizing and moving. 

The conversation highlights the growing demand for these services as more families recognize the complexities involved in helping their loved ones transition to new living arrangements. 

In this conversation, Janet Engel and Nicole Ramer discuss the complexities and emotional challenges of downsizing and moving for seniors. 

They explore the benefits of moving, the growing need for professional senior move management services, and the importance of safety and organization for those aging in place. 

Nicole shares practical steps for tackling the downsizing process, emphasizing the emotional journey of letting go of belongings while also highlighting the resources available for families navigating these transitions.

Takeaways

Nicole Ramer founded Organized Haven 12 years ago to help seniors with transitions.

The senior move management industry has seen significant growth in recent years.

Emotional challenges are as important as logistical ones in downsizing.

Clutter can severely impact a senior's ability to age in place safely.

Space planning is crucial for ensuring a smooth transition to a new home.

Technology, like 3D space planning, aids in the moving process.

Hiring a senior move manager provides comprehensive support throughout the moving process.

Collaboration with senior living communities is increasing for better client outcomes.

Cost for move management varies based on the complexity of the move.

Professional organizers help maintain dignity and autonomy for seniors during transitions. Moving provides an opportunity to declutter and simplify life.

Many seniors struggle with letting go of belongings due to emotional attachments.
Professional organizing can help seniors age in place safely.

The senior move management industry is growing due to demographic shifts.
Downsizing can be a proactive choice to avoid future crises.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Senior Move Management
02:37 The Growth of Senior Move Management
06:19 Navigating Emotional and Logistical Challenges
10:01 Understanding Clutter and Its Impact
14:51 Space Planning and Technology in Moving
19:26 The Value of Hiring a Senior Move Manager
22:52 Collaboration with Senior Living Communities
25:37 Cost Considerations in Move Management
29:41 The Benefits of Moving and Downsizing
34:14 The Growing Need for Senior Move Management
39:19 Aging in Place: Safety and Organization
43:44 Tackling the Transition: Practical Steps for Downsizing
46:41 The Emotional Journey of Letting Go

 Organized Haven | Moving | Downsizing | Senior Move Management

Transcript

Janet Engel (00:01.432)
Hello everyone and thank you for being with me today. My guest is Nicole Raymer and she is the founder and owner of Organized Haven. She is a professional senior move manager in the state of Florida and has been doing moves for many, many years, like over a decade. Nicole, I'm so happy to have you here today. Please tell us about yourself and how you started in the senior move industry.

Nicole Ramer (00:31.56)
Thank you, Janet, so much. I am very glad to be here finally. We've had this scheduled a couple times, and I'm so glad that in February, early in the month, we have made it happen. So yeah, I am a senior home coach and Polk County, Florida's only certified professional organizer and certified senior move manager. So I founded Organized Haven 12 years ago this April.

as a professional organizing company. And I did this after needing a

Nicole Ramer (01:11.056)
Many who might be watching this video can relate with being an organized person and leading an organized life. But then there are transitions that happen to us in life, whether we're, you know, leaving home for the first time or getting married, having a child, getting your first home, all the way through the older adult years of needing to downsize their life's collections.

and maybe move to senior living, independent assisted living or even memory care. So as I started this company after getting myself through the transition of becoming a mom for the first time, working very long hours, a long way from home, I realized that there's other people that are going through those transitions and maybe I can help them with that. So I started with the intention of helping people through all of life's transitions.

And so that was in 2013. had a one year old son at the time. So it really is my personal life that led me to this industry and to helping people organize their space, enjoy their homes. And many of my clients were older adults. They were seniors. They had collected a lifetime of things and the project that they faced in their

Janet Engel (02:20.014)
Thanks.

Nicole Ramer (02:37.114)
in their existing home was so overwhelming that they just couldn't see themselves being able to move. So senior living communities started reaching out and asked for my help helping their seniors through that downsizing process that they thought would take years. So that was three years into my organizing business that I added senior movement management services. My husband joined me at the time. He was on a temporary layoff with his

themed construction company. If I wasn't in a completely different industry, he certainly was because he was building artificial waterfalls and working with concrete and rebar and paint and very creative work. so he figured this out, senior move management. And his boss called him back three months later and said, okay, we've got work again. And he said, well, okay, I'm so sorry, but I work with my wife now.

so he and I, yeah. So, and so nine years in, as of last month, we've been working with each other full time and that can create a whole nother podcast episode. Maybe we'll set up later. yeah. So, five years after added adding senior move management services, we took a big leap and added fully licensed and insured moving services.

Janet Engel (03:36.96)
I agree.

Nicole Ramer (04:05.67)
So we are one of one to three percent of senior move managers who basically got their own trucks, hired their own movers, and became full service moving companies. And so I'm excited to see how NASA will continue to grow, the National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers. And yeah, so we do full service downsizing and moves mainly for older adults.

I would say 95 % of our clients are seniors and their families and it's a really overwhelming experience. We'll talk about that obviously on this call. I am also the executive director of Safe Moves for Seniors, which is a nonprofit here in Lakeland. We serve the Polk County Market, but we're growing as a national company. And as a nonprofit, we move financially disadvantaged seniors for free.

So at no cost to them, we're partnering with companies like Organized Haven and other moving and discard and donate companies to move a senior to a safer home and do so at no cost.

Janet Engel (05:16.971)
Mm-hmm.

Well, that's a wonderful service. Yeah, that's a wonderful service. And I'm sure that there is a lot of demand for your services in the state of Florida. Now, it's a product. You said that you're the only certified senior move manager in the state of Florida.

Nicole Ramer (05:33.864)
Sure. Yeah.

Nicole Ramer (05:40.326)
No, no, no, just here in Polk County. So the Lakeland, the Lakeland, Florida area.

Janet Engel (05:42.838)
okay.

Okay. All right. Yeah. Okay. That surprised me. So Nicole, tell me how the senior move management industry has changed over the last five years as we have so many baby boomers turning 65 and then people who were older already and perhaps transitioning from their home to either a different home or a senior living

senior living facility community.

Nicole Ramer (06:16.679)
community.

Mm-hmm. Community, yeah. Sure. I think it's seen incredible growth. So, yeah, I've been serving this market and this need for 12 years, but I think, yeah, even in the past five years, it's seen incredible growth. Frankly, more families are recognizing the complexity of helping their loved ones transition to a new phase of life. So I think five years ago, senior move management was still

Janet Engel (06:44.962)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole Ramer (06:48.818)
fairly niche and new. Senior move managers have been around for over 25 years, but the community as a whole really doesn't know anything about it. They're used to just calling a traditional moving company when they need to move, right? Or maybe calling the realtor. That's usually their first step because they say, well, in order to move, I have to sell my house. And so I think in the last decade, the senior move manager has been the last one called.

Janet Engel (07:04.622)
you

Nicole Ramer (07:18.2)
And that just is after a lot of chaos that maybe could have been avoided otherwise. So, but I think today it's becoming more mainstream because there's a rising awareness of not just the logistical challenges of downsizing, but also the emotional challenges of downsizing. There's also a surge right now in services that combine professional organizing with sustainability. So there's everything from eco-friendly packing materials.

to donation programs and even estate sales designed to reduce waste. Also, the demand for virtual consultations and hybrid services has grown significantly, especially after the pandemic shifted how we connect with clients. So I do a lot of virtual consultations, a lot of Zoom calls and Google Meet calls with families all over the US and beyond so that everyone is in the know.

as to the details of the transition.

Janet Engel (08:20.268)
And how do you manage that when you have a client that lives out of state?

Nicole Ramer (08:26.276)
Mm-hmm. Well, sometimes we're all meeting virtually. It could be me here in my office, the senior in his or her home, and the adult daughter. usually is the adult daughter. It could be a son. It could even be a niece or a nephew or a granddaughter. And so in that kind of environment, you know, it could be three, four, or five of us on a Zoom call.

But I've also done a lot of in-person consultations with the older adult who is not quite computer savvy, but daughter is in California. And so I'll do a physical walkthrough. Sometimes, you know, the family hasn't even seen the space in years and doesn't know if there's like a significant amount of disorganization or things that need to be sifted and sorted through. So.

That walkthrough is pretty telling sometimes, or it might have already been inspired by a virtual meeting because seniors all the time are actually connecting online again since the shift from the pandemic.

Janet Engel (09:39.02)
And you just mentioned caregivers that may not have been in the home for, who knows, many years. When someone does have a cluttered environment, how does that make your work different or more challenging?

Nicole Ramer (10:01.288)
What I didn't mention is I'm a chronic disorganization specialist. So I have seeked out education and resources to help those types of homeowners. It has a huge impact on a senior's ability to age and play safely. It has a huge impact on, again,

how they see themselves even getting through it to move to a safer residence. You know, and it's more common than you think. I help people everywhere from already organized and just wanting a well-managed move and an organized new space to those who are on the clutter hoarding scale. And the highest level is a five and those projects really require additional support like

therapists and biohazard companies, you know, but for the most part, it's just clutter. It's just things that have covered all of the flat surface areas of a home, not just the dining, you know, the huge dining table, but also the end table that's right beside their chair that they basically live in and even sleep in.

because it's just more convenient and it's easy, you know, it's less steps to the kitchen and to the bathroom or to the front door. And so many of my seniors even have fancy adjustable beds and, but they're covered in stuff. Maybe it's clothes, maybe it's papers, photos where they started an organizing project and just never finished it. And so.

It's physical, it's very physical, it's very emotional, and these seniors, or even younger people, they avoid calling because they are afraid of judgment. And, you know, it's just not mainstream for them to know that, okay, well, sure, I might need to hire someone to do my taxes, maybe even clean my house, but it's scary for them to hire a professional organizer or a downsizing specialist.

Nicole Ramer (12:21.99)
you know, they don't want to open their door to this.

Janet Engel (12:25.74)
Right, so you really are offering a very unique set of services because not only are you helping them organize their belongings and move them, but then you're also helping them reduce the amount and number of belongings in order to ensure that where they're transitioning to is going to be a safer space from the...

beginning.

Nicole Ramer (12:56.68)
Right. And that's a challenge too, because it's not just physical and emotional, but we come in with guidance and recommendations. We space plan everything from the furniture and where it's going to go, if they are moving, to what is going to fit in their new closets, their kitchen cabinets, their bathroom cabinets. Some of our clients have drawers and cabinets galore in these spaces.

but where they're moving to might have no drawers at all. And so where they want to bring all eight curling hair brushes, you know, but they only use one or two, their natural instinct is just pack it all up. I hear a lot, okay, we'll just bring it all and I'll figure it out, this downsizing thing on the other end. We'll get rid of the stuff after and no, that's just not a good idea. I call it packing with the unpack in mind.

Janet Engel (13:47.064)
Yeah.

Nicole Ramer (13:53.826)
And it's important that you do that and you consider the new space. Even if you're just so used to moving, moving, moving over the past decades and just bringing everything with you. mean, some of these people have stacks of boxes in their garage. They don't even know what's in them. And they've had to buy all new because they never got through it because there's just not enough space for it. So it takes a fair amount of guidance and

kind of hand holding sometimes to make the right decisions, but also allow them to maintain their dignity and autonomy for making their own decisions with that guidance.

Janet Engel (14:37.32)
you calculate how their belongings are going to fit in the new place and then also what needs to go? Do you use technology or is it from your own experience?

Nicole Ramer (14:51.856)
We do, we use a lot of technology. One piece of technology that we use is 3D space planning. So what we're doing is measuring their furniture and we're measuring their new space. Here in central Florida, I've measured a lot of the senior living community apartments and we have record of the PDF file that tells you the square footage. I always say square footage is just a number. You can...

kind of guesstimate when you look at that floor plan what's going to fit in the living room and the bedroom, the office or what one of my communities calls the anything room because some will make that the second bedroom. They say when the grandkids come over. The unfortunate truth though is that the grandkids will come over but maybe it's just once a year and when they do they aren't going to sleep there. In the senior living community they usually want their own private

hotel room. You know, so I always try to get them to make a choice that's for them and how they want to use that space every day instead of just once every blue moon. And so measuring the furniture and measuring the space allows us to really provide a guarantee as to what's going to fit and how it will look.

Sometimes that's not enough and the technology doesn't work and we literally bring our client to their new apartment and we put blue painter's tape on the floor so they can see it. They're there, they're standing there, they can kind of envision how they'll walk around and access the space. so my seniors who have said, you know, Nicole, I'm a retired engineer.

and I know how to use AutoCAD, I'm just going to do this space planning myself. And so then they give us this space plan. And we still just get the sense that it's not going to work. So we'll recommend going again to the community and showing them physically what that huge dining room table is going to look like in the great room next to the couch and how the dining chair is not going to even have space to move out from the table. It's going to be

Nicole Ramer (17:07.718)
butt to butt with that sofa. And so the client who I'm thinking of in particular, we've lost him since this was many years ago, but he said, okay, Carrie, this was my senior move manager at the time, Carrie, I see what you mean. Just go ahead and do the space plan. You have my permission.

Janet Engel (17:24.238)
It's so great when people just let you do your job, the job you know how to do better than anyone else.

Nicole Ramer (17:30.376)
Yeah, well again, right. And they say, well, I've moved 20 times in the past 30 or 40 years. And that's all good and all, but this is a different move. And sometimes it just really is beyond their capability because of the stress that they're under. Relocation stress syndrome is real. And it can be long term.

Janet Engel (17:56.824)
Tell me Nicole, well I've never heard of a space planner tool. Is this something that usually only professional organizers use or do other moving companies also offer this service to their clients?

Nicole Ramer (18:14.15)
I think in general, traditional moving companies do not offer this service. I told you that 1 to 3 % of senior move managers have added their own licensed moving services. But also traditional moving companies are seeing that this is a real problem and trying to serve this market. And so I may be wrong. All I know is really my local market. But there are moving companies also that are joining NASM.

Janet Engel (18:17.634)
No.

Nicole Ramer (18:42.564)
and saying they offer these services. But it really takes a dedicated senior move manager on the team who is gonna be able to properly guide their client from point A to point Z. I'll say because there's so many different steps and you can't count on a strong, probably kind and friendly someone who's gonna treat you like grandma.

You can't count on that person to show up on move day and just make magic happen. You know, so.

Janet Engel (19:14.506)
Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that. Tell me about the value of hiring a senior move manager like yourself versus a moving company.

Nicole Ramer (19:26.704)
Yeah. well, the value is you have someone on your side that is going to be helping you from maybe three months prior to your move, make good decisions. It's not just the space planning, but it's sorting all of those things and figuring out what is best to keep. I always recommend, keeping only those things that you use every day, every week.

every month or every year. Because if you're keeping that pair of pants or this many pants that fit on a hanger in the closet for that one day chance that you'll fit into them again, it's stopping you from using that space wisely with the things that fit you now and that you like wearing, that you like looking into the mirror and seeing, it gives you that confidence.

and isn't going to overwhelm your space. So joining NASA was the best thing that I did to really understand everything that comes before, during, and after a move for a senior. So I highly recommend to anybody that's offering move management services to take it seriously and join the National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers.

I joined NAPO first, the National Association of Productivity and Organizing Professionals, and it was only months after that that I found NASM. I thought I invented this senior move management thing, and little did I know that there's a thousand NASM members doing this across the country. So we have colleagues that we can rely on, we can support, that we can call. We meet all the time. We see each other every year at conferences.

Janet Engel (21:04.184)
Yeah.

Nicole Ramer (21:21.952)
And so we know the resources that are available. know the, we know about things such as chronic disorganization or hoarding tendencies and how to work through that. My traditional movers here in central Florida, they're great. They're kind. They are strong and they know how to move some boxes and some furniture and get a space set up. But

I mean, not really if they haven't made sure that it's going to fit first. So that's the difference. We're, making sure as senior move managers that we're not just saying yes, ma'am to everything and putting it all on the truck only to find out that we actually can't empty the truck. And now we have to add more stress to our client and their transition by telling them then after it's too late that

Janet Engel (21:57.047)
Right.

Nicole Ramer (22:20.296)
it looks like you should have downsized and now you have to do that.

Janet Engel (22:25.998)
Do you find that senior living communities will propose that someone uses a certified senior move manager in order to avoid a situation like this? Because I imagine that they do not want their apartments just being overwhelmed with furniture because that's going to create a fall hazard for the person, which is then going to create a problem for them.

Nicole Ramer (22:52.786)
Correct. Yeah, absolutely. Again, maybe in the last five years, more and more, these senior living communities are seeing the value and sharing the value and making sure that we are on their list of recommended vendors. I think that when they aren't, maybe they're not focused on the value of that resettle and that senior's wellbeing, but instead they're focusing on the cost and how it's different. I mean, when you're...

Performing a traditional move and that's the only service you're providing your client We talked about this the other day Janet the cost for a move and I mean it's so far ranging Because it depends on the square footage the density of the space the touch level of the client At least that's how I provide my quotes But the cost for a traditional move, let's just give an example of $1400 if it's a local move

could be much less, it could be much more, again, depending on all of those factors and how it was organized or not. Whereas a completely done for you move for someone who is taking advantage of the professional organizing and sorting and decluttering to the space planning, the packing with the unpacking mind, the discarding of everything that shouldn't be packed for their new home, the move itself, the unpacking and the resettle,

go as far as making the beds, hanging the pictures, mounting the TVs, mounting curtain rods and the curtains, decorating the new space, literally leaving not one box to unpack and organizing every single square footage and inch of the space. So you can imagine how the cost is different. And so some families, if the budget just isn't there for that, some families are, of course, taking that role.

And so I believe in educating those families and providing what we can offer in move management services and delegating the simple tasks that they're able to do so that even lower income families are able to make good decisions and approach the move right. Again, instead of just hiring a traditional mover.

Janet Engel (25:16.018)
So I want to make sure I understand this correctly. So you said average cost of a local move would be $1,400. Now that's the fee that they're paying you for your senior move management services, not the move itself.

Nicole Ramer (25:37.362)
Well no, I am the mover, so if I have someone, if I have a family who calls, okay, right.

Janet Engel (25:39.736)
But let's say if someone's not the mover. Can you separate it just so I can understand what is the cost of a professional like you?

Nicole Ramer (25:49.512)
Okay, I see. I see what you mean. Yeah, so a completely done for you move. Let's, okay. So if I take the moving piece out and it's just move management support from the planning to the packing, only what will fit to the unpacking and resettle, maybe it could be around $3,000, $2,500, $3,000 if it's not gonna include the move itself.

Janet Engel (26:17.685)
Okay.

Nicole Ramer (26:17.732)
But again, there's so many factors that can change that. How organized is the space or clutter free? How far is the distance between the origin and the destination? You know, and if I'm going to Orlando or to Tampa, I mean, my moving truck can cover the state. So sometimes we're going North Florida, South Florida. And so even if we were just doing the move management piece for that, if they chose us.

as opposed to somebody else even in their market, the pricing would be different because of the travel.

Janet Engel (26:52.684)
Well, to me, that sounds very reasonable to have a professional who really understands working with this population and focusing on reducing the number of things that that person has and then packing it and then also unpacking it and putting up a TV and putting up pictures. I mean, there's huge value in that.

Nicole Ramer (27:16.648)
Absolutely. Who doesn't want to walk into their newly finished apartment and not have to unpack a thing? And we do wait for them before we hang pictures because we want, excuse me, we want them to make sure that they like where the furniture is placed. With a 3D image of where it's all going to go. Once you get it there, you might have a different idea. We might even have a different idea and, you know, do some rearranging. So we want them to take.

a night with it and make sure, mean we'll mount their TV on move day because we've got to make sure their TV is working on move day because they want to turn on the news or whatever they watch that night and they are not happy if it's not going to work. Same with their computer. And yeah, so I kind of lost my train of thought there but

Janet Engel (27:49.186)
Yeah. Right.

Janet Engel (27:58.211)
Yeah.

Janet Engel (28:07.979)
But yes, how valuable your services are just as a certified senior move manager. You know, take away that moving piece.

Nicole Ramer (28:14.512)
Yeah, yeah, right. And so I like them to kind of sleep on it and make sure they like where the furniture is and that they're a part of the decision making process on placement of the pictures. So we don't want to put unnecessary holes in the walls. They can us back. I mean, that's what they ask us to do, it's no problem, so long as there's sufficient time in the day.

because if we're ending a move at 8 p.m. I'm sorry, but we're not hanging pictures that night. Ideally, we're finishing the move at three or four o'clock. So imagine walking into your new space. You just moved that day. It doesn't look like it, except for maybe nothing on the wall. And you can have dinner and relax and go to bed early because you're so exhausted just from watching us work. Yeah, it's it's a huge value.

Janet Engel (28:45.292)
Right.

Janet Engel (29:05.524)
Yeah, that's really valuable. I've moved cross country twice and I know how stressful that is and actually my husband and I very good about putting the house back together again.

including the art on the walls. We usually have it done within three weeks. And I know we must be better than most people because when we have friends come over, they're like, wow, you just moved. The house looks great.

Nicole Ramer (29:36.36)
Well, you probably didn't have a whole lot of clutter to begin with, so that helps.

Janet Engel (29:41.262)
And I tell you that's the benefit of moving. We've moved us three times is that you moving is an opportunity to get rid of things

Nicole Ramer (29:54.332)
my gosh, Janet, I, so we upsized in space with our last move. This was over five years ago. May will be six years. It's unbelievable how fast that time flies, but we upsized in space, but I was also having a baby and I refuse to bring all of that stuff here to our new house. And so we had, I think at that time it was our second max old online auction with all of the things that I even

was successful in having my husband downsize. He's a collector, so imagine certified professional organizer marys collector. It's a lot of fun and you know we're in this downsizing business and we just have access to so much but he's been collecting antique things and vintage things since he was 16. So it was everywhere. Now we have one antique room but

Janet Engel (30:41.218)
Hmm.

Nicole Ramer (30:50.972)
There are some things that are kind of sneaking their way into the living room and everywhere else as things start to collect. My son, who's 12, little Danny, he's got that gene too. So he's collecting himself.

Janet Engel (31:07.52)
some antiques that were gifted to me by my mother-in-law. And when I had no furniture years ago, it was great. Nice high quality furniture. But now that I have furniture and, and my tastes are different and you know, I'm very specific about what I want and what I like, then I didn't want it anymore. So that took a few arguments.

But I just got rid of about 80 % of it Yeah

Nicole Ramer (31:37.096)
sure.

Nicole Ramer (31:40.61)
Awesome, good job. Yeah, so speaking of those arguments and those gifts, it is challenging for a senior to have to let go of all of these things that they have saved for that day that their kids or their grandkids wanted. Could be China, could be baby clothes, could be...

Janet Engel (32:01.314)
And the issue is that their grandkids really don't want it. Because as a therapist that worked in home health, I was the recipient of China. At one point I had four sets of China that I had said yes to. And then I said, what am I gonna do with this? And it was very high quality China. But I ended up gifting it. Very beautiful, yeah.

Nicole Ramer (32:04.495)
No, they don't.

Nicole Ramer (32:21.894)
Yeah, sure. And probably beautiful. Well, good. And I, I always say, I, I recommend to the kids, just take it, just take that overwhelm and dad because, or grandma and grandpa, because it is a gift in their eyes. Even if in ours we think, well, I'm not going to use it. it doesn't fit in my space. Not my style. Yeah. just take it.

Janet Engel (32:45.292)
Mm-hmm. It's not my style.

Nicole Ramer (32:50.704)
because it's going to make their transition so much easier. They're going to feel good about it. And what happens to it after that is up to you, the one who now owns it. And I always say to a picture, what is the saying? A picture speaks a thousand words or something like that. so.

Janet Engel (32:59.309)
Yeah.

Nicole Ramer (33:14.258)
Taking a picture of it and letting it go and being able to tell the story of this collection is also very helpful where you can further gift it, downsize it. It might be a whole china set to start with, but maybe to remember mom or grandma, you keep a cup and a saucer and that sits on your bookcase with your favorite books, you know? And so it can become a memory that doesn't take up a whole lot of space and that doesn't really have to impede on your style.

Janet Engel (33:45.344)
Yeah, yeah, or gifting it to people who need it. Like the people who just took all this furniture I was telling you about came here from another country and had no furniture. So now here they received all this high quality, beautiful furniture and were super happy with it, where I was unhappy with it. So yeah.

Nicole Ramer (33:59.228)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole Ramer (34:10.394)
Right, right. Yeah.

Janet Engel (34:14.102)
So Nicole, tell me how do you see the senior move management industry growing, evolving with the population or I should say the demographic of older adults where we have 10,000 baby boomers turning 65 every single day up until the year 2030. But then we have Generation X, which is the one

Nicole Ramer (34:35.078)
Yeah.

Janet Engel (34:43.886)
I belong to, we will be the next group to age. So we really have a society that's going to continue to age up until the year 2060. How do you see that affecting this industry?

Nicole Ramer (34:59.634)
Yeah, well it's just gonna become more of a need, more and more of a need. It's gonna become more mainstream because they too will be transitioning out of family homes. I just visited with someone yesterday who is in a 55 plus community in a manufactured home. She used to live there with her sister. Her and her sister have never been married or had kids.

and her sister's in a nursing home now and she is there alone and It's her parents home. So her parents lived there. I Don't know for how long they're actually from New York the family. So there's no local family here But there is a growing cultural emphasis on minimalism and decluttering thanks to Popular media and books that highlight it the joy the joy of letting go

And so because I think too often adult children are living far away from their parents, that professional help is essential during transitions. We talked about that in the beginning of this. There's rising costs of senior living. So people are downsizing earlier and making more intentional choices about their belongings.

Janet Engel (36:14.582)
And you also mentioned during our call yesterday that you are getting more calls from seniors who are currently in Florida and want to move out of state to be closer to their adult children. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Nicole Ramer (36:35.603)
Yeah, uh-huh. You know, this is actually a new thing for me at least. I'm not sure if this is different for senior move managers in other states or if COVID had a lot to do with it. I really haven't studied the why, but yeah, more and more these days in the last year or two, we have had

seniors here in the central Florida market moving to Chicago, Georgia, California, places all over the US because they need to be closer to their kids. Even if they can't stand the cold and they're moving to cold weather, they're doing it because they see themselves aging. They see a need for more assistance or more time with family.

Janet Engel (37:17.143)
Yeah.

Nicole Ramer (37:28.602)
certainly become more lonely since COVID, especially early on during the pandemic. so we have partners that we work with. of Florida, we have partners, excuse me, Wheaton Beacons agents specifically who have provided certification programs for us to make sure that even if we're the ones properly guiding the client,

properly downsizing their belongings and doing all of the packing. Before, seniors would say, well, I don't think it's a good idea for you to pack because it's considered packed by owner for that moving company who's then going to cross state lines. I want my belongings protected in terms of valuation, insurance, whatever you want to call it. It is insurance. So Wheaton Beacons and agents across the US

provide senior move managers with a partners in packing certification program. So now, if we're there guiding our clients and working with them sometimes months at a time and before their move, we're able to do the packing and Wheaton Beacons will ensure it and or excuse me, provide that full value protection so that they can feel confident that even if something happens and it breaks in transit, that they are going to be protected.

Janet Engel (38:56.718)
Well, that's a great resource. Nicole, tell me about people who want to age in place. Since the majority of older adults do want to age in place, but I totally recognize the value of having a professional organizer in order to make that space safer.

How do you work with older adults who want to remain in their homes but recognize that the way their home currently looks is really keeping them from being safe?

Nicole Ramer (39:33.35)
Yeah, yeah, I think we've seen a shift and thankfully so in those who want to downsize earlier. And it has been a goal of mine for many years to reach that older adult who isn't safe in their home and is living amongst clutter and, you know, at risk of many fall hazards and, you know, ending up

Unfortunately, in the hospital, sometimes in long-term rehab and after adding moving services, I feel like a lot of my local community has forgotten that we are a professional organizing company too, and primarily in fact. And so I'm trying to get back to that place where my community understands the importance of decluttering.

and doing it right and making them safe in their existing space. One, so that they maybe can have less hospital trips and less medical emergencies and crises. But two, so that in the event of a crisis, they're ready. It wouldn't take much of a downsize to get them to a new space, whether it's independent living, assisted living, or even just.

a smaller home in a 55 plus community or a smaller apartment. So we are our main mission really is to help seniors age in place because of how important it is because they do want to stay in their homes. They you know they see senior living sometimes as a nursing home when it's not I mean not at all. They see it as the end yeah.

Janet Engel (41:19.254)
Yeah, in the end too, I think it's like they're walking to their death.

Nicole Ramer (41:24.616)
Yeah, it's almost like one more loss. know, they may have already faced a loss with a spouse or even a child. Oh my gosh, the worst. you know, so losing their home that they may have lived in for 30, 40, 50 or more years and raised their families in, they see that as just one more loss, as well as all of the things that they've curated over a lifetime. Maybe they've traveled, you know, maybe they have moved.

Janet Engel (41:34.507)
Yeah.

Nicole Ramer (41:54.098)
from place to place and they've been in the military for instance and so they or they've just traveled for fun and they have collections from all over the world. And so there are resources for calling through all of that for even providing inventories to the families who are dispersed, you know, regionally and so that things can be dispersed amongst family things can be donated.

to provide resources for people who don't really have the means to buy new furniture and set up their new space. So donation is something I highly recommend. We do a lot of estate selling for interesting things and collections. Always recommend at the very least that the low value goods are donated so that the people who truly have a need and don't have the means have access to them at the very least at a lower cost.

So.

Janet Engel (42:57.262)
Tell me, and I ask this question selfishly because my mother-in-law is, she's a widow, she lives alone. In fact, she lives in Florida, so I may be hiring you. And she is considering moving to a smaller place or some kind of community.

Nicole Ramer (43:10.578)
Yeah.

Janet Engel (43:19.88)
and her daughter is helping her and they're both overwhelmed. They bring up this conversation all of the time about what is she going to do with all her stuff? What is your advice? What are the first things that people in this situation should be thinking about? And then how can they best approach or tackle this?

Nicole Ramer (43:43.88)
Yeah, well it's a huge project so tackling is a really good word because it's not just one room or space but it's usually the whole house sometimes even the attic or depending on the state that you're in you know the basement and we've all read the articles no one wants your stuff but I have found that that really is untrue I mean certainly the kids might not want it

Janet Engel (43:46.316)
transition.

Okay.

Janet Engel (44:06.122)
Mm-hmm.

Janet Engel (44:11.948)
Right.

Nicole Ramer (44:12.058)
their own personal kids unless they've listened to me and said yes to taking it and then doing with it what they will. keep it for a little while just in case mom comes over on that note. But when it comes to decluttering and organizing, we all know also we've seen the tips to start small.

Janet Engel (44:19.232)
Yes, and then discard it.

Janet Engel (44:27.202)
Yeah.

Nicole Ramer (44:41.128)
and make a plan. So I talk about that all of the time, how important it is to make a plan. I like to get it down on paper or maybe even a big bulletin board. Have a poster board, you know, in every single room and it be front and center to say exactly what this room needs to be used for, exactly what needs to go, doesn't belong in this space. And just try to simplify it. You know, all of these things didn't collect overnight.

and it's not going to be a one day process. It's not going to be smooth and easy. There are going to be roadblocks. If you anticipate those roadblocks and you know what your plan is and you have help, whether it's the daughter or, you know, niece, nephew, friend, neighbor, someone who goes with you to church, so long as it's not someone who is going to judge and who isn't going to make the process even harder. That's why I always recommend hiring a

professional for this because we know the roadblocks. know what can happen and we know that the recommendations of the neighbor aren't really probably going to match ours. And so I think that's the best way to start and to start early. Again, you might think that you've got years before you have to downsize, but one fall can change everything, you know. So make a plan.

Janet Engel (46:03.874)
Yeah.

Nicole Ramer (46:08.336)
and try to stick to it and utilize the resources in your community to just do a little bit at a time.

Janet Engel (46:17.23)
Do you see that people are thinking about their transition, but what holds them back is that, well, number one, they don't have a clear idea of where they're going, which this is my mother-in-law's situation. But number two, they don't know what to do with their stuff, and their stuff is holding them hostage.

Nicole Ramer (46:29.776)
Mm. Yeah.

Nicole Ramer (46:41.264)
Yeah, it sure is. Yeah, you know, it always is easier to know where you're going because then you have that number, the square footage, and you have that, you know, floor plan. So you can start envisioning what's going to fit and you can start there. But you don't really need that to start decluttering and downsizing the contents of your existing space. I think I mentioned it in another question that I like to recommend.

I say it all the time to keep the things that you use every day, every week, every month or every year. If you do that, you don't really need to have anywhere that you're intending to move. I mean, maybe you keep your house completely furnished because you don't want to be living in an empty home and hearing your echo.

when you walk through it and talk with your loved ones and that's fine but there is so much that's in those drawers in that furniture.

Nicole Ramer (47:45.924)
in between that you're not using every day, week, month, or year. Those are the easiest things to let go of, especially if it's just hiding in the back of a closet. I will say though, once you start digging through that closet, you're going to find things that you're like, my gosh, I haven't seen this in years. I forgot I had it. Or finally, finally I've located it. And if you are going to put it to good use, keep it. But these things are going to take time. So.

You have to give yourself some patience. have to give yourself the time to go through those memories. Everything our clients touch has a story and it could be a long one, you know, and that's okay, but write the story down, especially if you're letting it go or

Janet Engel (48:29.134)
Mm.

Nicole Ramer (48:35.058)
gifting it to one of your family members. it with the story so they understand the memory that's behind it and maybe it can continue to pass through the generations. again, starting small and then starting with the things that you're not using anymore because you can do that without knowing where you're moving or when you're moving.

Janet Engel (48:47.445)
Yeah, in.

Janet Engel (48:58.676)
Yes, what you just said reminded me that you'll going through your things, you actually find things and it's like going shopping. And in my last move, when I was moving from Colorado to Georgia, I found this necklace that I'm wearing now. My father was a jeweler and he died many years ago. So I wear it every day.

Nicole Ramer (49:08.768)
huh.

Nicole Ramer (49:28.561)
I love that.

Janet Engel (49:28.862)
And I didn't even know I had it until I was unpacked or I was going through my things and I opened all these little boxes that I had in these drawers and I found it. not only have I been wearing it for years, but one of my best friends was going through cancer treatment. And so I gave it to her for a year.

Nicole Ramer (49:56.805)
Aww, wow, how great. I'm sure he's looking down on you so proud. So, that's such a great personal story and it...

Janet Engel (50:03.783)
Yeah. Yeah, so you never know what you can, what you're going to find if you go through your stuff.

Nicole Ramer (50:10.726)
That's right, exactly. And you will cry. There will be tears when you look through those photographs and find those things that belong to one of your loved ones that have passed. That's okay too. You also have to be willing to be patient with yourself through that process. And if you are going to have a partner, an accountability partner, whether it's a friend or a professional, I mean, especially if it's a friend, just make sure that that person or that family member

Janet Engel (50:34.572)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole Ramer (50:38.664)
is also going to be patient with you and allow you to go through that process and take allow you to take the time whatever time you need so an adult child who is this remember to be patient and to just go through that journey with them and not get frustrated because stories are longer and their reasons for wanting to keep something don't really align with your

you know, ideology or your thought process. don't, oftentimes you don't understand and that's okay. You don't have to. It is really all about that senior and.

going through that journey with them and making it easier. It makes it easier for everyone involved.

Janet Engel (51:29.814)
Yeah, well, you gave us some great advice. I learned a lot. I didn't know. I mean, I had heard you talk a lot about senior move managers, but I really didn't understand everything that your job entails and your skill set. So I'm really glad that I invited you on.

because God, everyone could use a senior room manager. And I think I, my mother-in-law can use one like right now. so thank you so much, Nicole. And tell us how can someone get ahold of you? How can they reach you?

Nicole Ramer (52:03.42)
I'm happy to help. So I thank you too, Janet.

Nicole Ramer (52:12.1)
Well, if you're yep, you can reach my gosh You can first of all check out organized haven calm on top of everything else that I like to do I Stay busy writing blog posts my goal this year is to have one per week and so I again I love to educate my community and provide these resources and Make it a little easier whether they're hiring me or not. So organized haven calm is chock full of resources

Our phone number is there as well to reach out to me or one of my team members directly and We're on Facebook. We're on Instagram. Just do a search for organized Haven

Nicole Ramer (52:58.504)
whether you're here in central Florida or you're across the US and beyond, check out both NASM and NAPO. So NASM again is the National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers. Say that 10 times fast. And that's nasm.org, N-A-S-M-M.org. NAPO is the National Association of Productivity and Organizing Professionals, and that's napo.net, N-A-P-O.net.

Janet Engel (53:14.291)
You got it

Nicole Ramer (53:27.346)
So I highly encourage you to reach out to those resources. There's a directory there. All you need to do is put in your zip code and find people like me. There's also the ICD, which is the Institute for Challenging Disorganization. And their website, I believe, is challengingdisorganization.org.

Janet Engel (53:48.686)
Okay, well thank you so much and I will include these links in the show notes once the episode is published. So you don't have to write all of this down because it's gonna be in the show notes.

Nicole Ramer (54:04.85)
Great, I'll correct it if I was wrong on any of those links. I'll send it to you, okay?

Janet Engel (54:07.566)
You can just give me a list and then I'll copy it and paste it.

Nicole Ramer (54:13.32)
I think I'll throw in there some books. So any of the book readers out there Yeah, I'll link to some good books that are helpful

Janet Engel (54:16.374)
great.

Janet Engel (54:21.56)
All right, well fantastic. Thank you so much, Nicole.

Nicole Ramer (54:25.212)
You're welcome, Janet. Thank you, I will see you soon online somewhere. And hey, maybe in